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Old 12-18-2007, 03:15 AM   #1
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Default 99+ MS-II install issues

Ok, looks like I have most of my MS-II built. There's a input that I never finished, so it's tied to +5, shouldn't kill anything, and there are two diodes which aren't quite right (have to get parts) - one in place of the zener diode on the knock line (so the CPU sees gnd all the time on the knock line) and a 30v diode verses a 70v diode on the boost solenoid line.

In other words, nothing that should mess with anything.

So I have two issues, otherwise things behave just swell with my jimstim:
1) The O2 just comes out way wacky. At the voltage increases is shows things being richer, then jumping leaner, and all around not working. I've set it for WB and NB, and I've put the jimstim's jumper on and off a few times for wb/nb, and no combination gives me in megatune what I'd expect. The voltage all throughout the circuit is fine, even up to the tinsy pin on the cpu itself, there's a 0-5v signal, varies nice and linear.

2) The baro correction shows way low. Like, 68 kpa. Again, the circuit is right out of the book, the two sensors share pins for ground/power, and they are within 1% of their output voltage, checked at the pins in the 68000 slot (cpu slot). But they read WAY different. The baro moves if I blow or suck on it, like it should, just like the other. But the reported value on the screen is way off.

Maybe this has to do with beta MS-II code. Not sure, but its annoying since everything else seems perfect.

[edit] I belive I'm running 2007-11-22 build, title bar on MT says: MT 2.25 p1 - MS/x pre2.0 beta 20071122 1040est (c) kc/jsm **ms2
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Old 12-18-2007, 02:10 PM   #2
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1) You need to tell MegaTune you have a WB in 3 places. Once in MT config, once in EGO settings and once in tools->ARF sensors. Did you do all 3?
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Old 12-18-2007, 05:40 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arga View Post
1) You need to tell MegaTune you have a WB in 3 places. Once in MT config, once in EGO settings and once in tools->ARF sensors. Did you do all 3?
Jesus. No. I did all one. :-( Only in EGO settings, I couldn't find any others. Thanks!! I'll check it out.

The idle valve acted really funny till I power cycled the MS.

Oh, and why can't I find a way to mount the PWM idle valve diode in the case??

Anyone know what I'm doing here?




Anyway, perhaps if I could get raw voltages out of the MS, I could convince myself the hardware is fine. Not "12.7 afr", but 3.2V
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Old 12-18-2007, 05:42 PM   #4
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Quote:
Anyone know what I'm doing here?
It would appear that you're attempting to determine the compressive strength of your second MAP sensor.
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Old 12-18-2007, 07:02 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by Joe Perez View Post
It would appear that you're attempting to determine the compressive strength of your second MAP sensor.
Close. I was trying to figure out what was on the back of the board by the it made when it crushed. My only definitive answer is nothing that matters. :-)


Now I just have to figure out how to set up the MS. My thinking is if I dig enough into the settings, I'll get it.

Then it's harness making time.

Oh, and shockingly, radioshack had almost all the parts I wanted. Sort of. Their 4.7 zener for protecting the CPU was a 5.1v. Risky?

______________
Getting there! The KnockSenseMS came in (anyone want my old knocksense? Maybe I'll give it to my dad), so now I'm only waiting on my EGT (the guy never even got back to me?!) and the wideband. WOT's been helpful on this end at least.
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Old 12-18-2007, 07:15 PM   #6
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Oh, and shockingly, radioshack had almost all the parts I wanted. Sort of. Their 4.7 zener for protecting the CPU was a 5.1v. Risky?
Dude. We live in San Diego. There are two Fry's within a 20 minute drive of Qualcomm, and another five between here and Burbank. And you're shopping at Radio Shack?

Seriously though, what's with the Zener on the knock line?

Edit: nevermind, I see the document you're getting that from: http://www.megamanual.com/ms2/knock.htm

Still, the KnockSenseMS output is already 5v to begin with. I'd think the Zener unnecessary?

Last edited by Joe Perez; 12-18-2007 at 07:29 PM.
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Old 12-18-2007, 08:13 PM   #7
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Yeah - I was kinda thinking that, which is why I was ok with the 5.1V. Nothing with any compliance should get higher than that anyway.

What I don't know if if the knocksense puts out an analog or digital signal. Analog seems a lot more useful, but I guess it's just "knock events" afterall. Only the threshold is different for different RPM.
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Old 12-18-2007, 08:15 PM   #8
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That's a pretty slick way of hooking up your second map sensor. I thought about doing it that way, glad to see someone else doing it ahead of me.
I'm lucky to have a radioshack close to me. There are no Frys to be found anywhere around me though. They have things like TIP120s, Mica install kits, diodes, and a few transistors i need once in a while.
Take a picture of the top of your board, i'm curious to see what the MS2 board looks like with the daughterboard and all setup for a miata.
Did you decide to go with sequential injection right off the bat using all your outputs?
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Old 12-18-2007, 08:48 PM   #9
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Yeah, ok, hang on (goes on a journey across the web)

Back side of board


Front side, mostly done


For those who care:
Close up of wiring boost controller into Q16 high current ignition driver circuit:

The leads are all very heavy. Yellow jumper to ground shown, and note I put in the 1k resistor in the... I forget, I drew it all up here:

Ah! R57
But the idea is not to waste space in the protosection, and to give you a nice place to mount everything. The only non pcb mounted part was a resistor on the back, I soldered to js0. You can see in the board top pic where I will put the diode, I mounted the temporary one high in the air so you can see where it goes - there's +12V at that other smaller diode. You know, the "red kind" for you technical folks out there like Joe.

Note on the backside I jumpered the knock sensor circuit to ground since I didn't have my zener diode yet, that's getting replaced tonight.

I started wiring up an extra input on Js7, not sure what to use it for yet, maybe a clutch switch.

Other thoughts: Radio Shack sucks, but they are better than nothing. I drove right by Fry's without thinking. Sigh, I remembered, too, when I was in the RS parkinglot.

If you're thinking of doing the MAP that way, I'd probably just double the cap feeding the one sensor instead of soldering it to the leads. Really I just did it that way cause it looks cool. :-)

No picks of the MS-II yet, clearing the board with the can-style 2n2222A's I had was a concern, so I wanted to show how I routed everything below board level.

Also, don't use braided wire. It's hard to get in the holes and it runs funny, you can totally tell the one red wire on the top of the board that sucks was a braided wire.


Lastly: No, no sequential injection to start. Too many other uses for those inputs and outputs. I'd still like to do it though, maybe down the road - if I read up on CANbus, I can move all the other stuff over.
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Old 12-18-2007, 09:37 PM   #10
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Oh, yeah - how do I wire the tach pulse on a 99+?
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Old 12-18-2007, 10:03 PM   #11
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The MSx manual gives you two choices for an input, High and Low, and they say low can fry your CPU. Now, I would think just adding a zener to ground would work (what am I missing here?) but....

They say:

OR


But couldn't I do something more like:


I don't want to have to rewire every switch in my car to +5 volts, you know...
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Old 12-19-2007, 02:43 AM   #12
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C'mon, someone here must know how a transistor works. Don't make me dig out horrowitz-n-hill.... :-)
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Old 12-19-2007, 05:21 AM   #13
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Of the two schematics you drew, the first one will work, the second one will not.

Jim
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Old 12-19-2007, 05:47 PM   #14
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Heh. Thanks. Your reward: Eye candy!





Doesn't that look nice and fast? Faster than the shipping I hope. The only thing slower is the wideband vaporware I ordered.... But it's a nice piece, no? $55 shipped from team rip engineering.
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Old 12-19-2007, 06:33 PM   #15
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I got four exhaust probes from Motorsport Innovations at $70 a piece IIRC. It's almost a shame to put them on the header.

Jim

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Old 12-19-2007, 06:54 PM   #16
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I'm curious to see the business end of them. They are all packaged up, hard to tell what I'm seeing....
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Old 12-19-2007, 07:29 PM   #17
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My camera was shot a few weeks ago so I can't take a quality pic of them. Maybe tomorrow at work.

Jim
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Old 12-20-2007, 05:10 PM   #18
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So, bits and pieces. The AEM forums have a lot of good info, Emilio does take stuff seriously. :-) Here's some stuff from miata.net, which I know has been seen but I want to put all the notes together.
http://forum.miata.net/vb/archive/in.../t-221938.html

I too initially thought that the sensor output was sometimes inverted, or inverted when cranking; or inverted randomly. By carefully examining the crank signal the moment the engine fires and RPM climbs from ~100 to ~500, it was obvious the berserk falling edges "de-berserk", and the signal doesn't look inverted enymore.
--------------
But I am currently using the falling edges and it just works fine. Engine starts fine and runs fine. It's been working like that for a while. No timing or syncing errors recorded by the EMS either ...
--------------
Then I entered the data in my crank cam signal generator program. Look at the attached picture - it is a scope of the '99 crank and cam signals generated by my program (not real '99 signals). The scope is of the program set to simulate the engine turning at 180 rpm. Looks the same as the real NB thing.

Then this morning I connected the signal to my AEM EMS, set in the AEM EMS to monitor raising edges only for both crank and cam. Then I adjusted the crank/cam options and tables the way I had predicted they should be few days ago (look the posts above).

Then I tried it and it works!

It synced instantly. Tried turning the EMS off and on about 10 times while the generator was running. Every time it synced the same way.

As a result:

The 0 tooth edge is the one 10 BTDCC cylinder 2. So, both ignition and injection sync options should be decreased by 1.0 (the NA way was counter zeroing at 10 BTDCC cylinder 4, so we should move the ignition and injection back by 1 cylinder = 180 crank degrees = 1.0 teeth )

The significant edges are the 10 BTDC ones
The alternative edges are the 80 BTDC ones

The Alt Fire mode is enabled. This means that during cranking, the dwell starts on the alternate edges (the 80 BTDC ones) and the spark happens on the significant edges (the 10 BTDC ones) 70 crank degrees later. Looked fine on the scope to me.

As soon as the rpm raise and the EMS goes out of cranking mode it starts using the timing to fire sparkplugs and injection, and it looked fine to me on the scope too.


I want to knock this down, and make a full pin-out chart for the 99-00 miata harness. I'll post whatever I come up with. Pretty it might not be.
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Old 12-21-2007, 02:57 AM   #19
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Default Huzzah!

Sweet! My little test of Arga/Joe's input circuits seemed to work great. I took the two timing inpulses from the JimStim off, and ran those jumpers to snipped leads to aligator clips to paperclips I sanded down with a cut-off wheel, which I stabbed into the backs of the connectors on the car, trying not to tear the rubber. Everything else I let the stim run.

At the last second, I remembered to switch it to "Miata 99-00". Burn. Then.. It worked! I got ~300 rpm, but it kept bouncing, sometimes 0, sometimes 1000, sometimes 50, but mostly 350.

http://abefm.smugmug.com/photos/234520924-O.jpg <-Full Res Version
Then, after tearing it all down, I decided to reboot the MS (duh!) and after that I did it again, 235 RPM almost rock stable. Maybe 323-236.

So, I have some logs. I don't know what to do with them. Eveyrone's graphs are shockingly similar, so I assume there's some standard analysis program? I guess I'll attach it. Someone tell me if the RPMs look... I dunno, believable?

I'm still a little worried about the weird rev limiter thing, but I'm starting to think I could run this. Oh, one more thing: The signal to the coils should normally be "off", right? I.E. You ground while firing? And I want "inverted" output?
Attached Files
File Type: rar datalog200712202233.rar (1.7 KB, 36 views)
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Old 12-21-2007, 04:20 AM   #20
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So I've finished building up my basic MS-II for a '00 miata. I've added a few goodies like boost control. I want to run VICS (variable intake runner - a solenoid you close at a given RPM) and my cooling fans (on at a certain temp).

I see I've still got D15, along with JS 11,8,6,3,2,1 all open. Doesn't that mean I could run 7 more devices? Which ones of these are ins, which are outs, which are analog? How much power can they drive (for instance, the stepper drivers must be able to deliver SOMETHING. Or I could do a trick like you do for boost control, putting a heavier duty chip where Q20 goes like I did for Q4.

Anyway, all input is appreciated. I keep seeing tables of only three or four options at once, but it looks like there are still 7 options open to me.

Let me know. I'd be happy moving stuff around if it opens up more I/O.
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