99- possible knock. Pls. check my ignition table please - Miata Turbo Forum - Boost cars, acquire cats.

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Old 10-18-2012, 10:58 AM   #1
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Default 99- possible knock. Pls. check my ignition table please

After quite some trials and tribulations my car is finally running with MS3 and MS3X. Overheating seems to be in check and the AFRs are looking good too.

Today I went for the first longer drive (to work, approx. 20 miles interstate) and I heard some noises from the engine compartment around 3000rpm to 5000rpm under light accel (maybe 80kpa or so) that may be knock, or it may be something mechanical. Really hard to tell. Sounded a bit consistent for knock, but I'm no expert by a long shot.

My setup:
- Old style FM2 piping and intercooler with T28.
- 99 head with 1mm oversize valves on 97 block (slightly lower compression than stock 99)
- MS3 & MS3X
- fiveO 850cc injectors

Here's my ignition map - whaddaya think? Am I inviting trouble?
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Old 10-18-2012, 01:06 PM   #2
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Here's what I'm planning on running in a few weeks when I get my FM setup installed. 2000SE stock motor, planning on 9-10psi in a daily driven config.

I pieced this together from looking back at 3-4 years of archived posts about the various timing people were running. I "think/hope" it's a fairly conservative/safe map until I get it on a dyno. Ambient temps are out of control here (115+, which means sometimes 160+ intake temps) in the summertime.

Yours in comparison seems a little more aggressive. It might be fine, hopefully someone can comment.




edit: Missed that you're hearing the noise under light accel. Can you datalog & post it up to maybe try and see what's happening?
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Old 10-18-2012, 01:15 PM   #3
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Don't "waste" resolution around 600-3000rpm so much. You have too much spark angle from 85-135kp / 900-3100. You need to use a more traditional X-Y axis because you're going to be in the danger-zone up higher.
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Old 10-18-2012, 01:18 PM   #4
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Also, you're running the limit of what I'd run in a spark table from road tuning, over the limit in a few places. Without knowing your AFR targets, if you're hitting them, and if you're enriching properly, we don't know what you're messing up.

Give some serious consideration to "starting over", lol.
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Old 10-18-2012, 03:00 PM   #5
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AFR targets are similar to what everybody else seems to be running. 14.7 below 80kpa and then progressively richer until they hit 11.5 at 250kpa. Currently running on target or richer. The possible det I heard was at 14.7 target and achieved. All below 80 kpa.

On the subject of resolution: I beg to differ. You usually want to put the resolution where the big changes are happening. And that appears to be at lower rpms. My rpm and map scales are logarithmic and if you look at the 3D map, I think this makes sense. -> why put resolution in areas where nothing changes very much?

I did go for a ride over lunch with the area of interest retarded 4%. No more noise. Not sure if that fixed it or if it was a mechanical noise that just wasn't happening then.

Hustler: What areas of my map do you think are too aggressive? Or can somebody just post a 16x16 safe road-tune map as a table? I don't want to have to re-enter 256 values. Of course if that saves my engine from premature death, it may be worth considering...

In other news: I don't think my cooling problem is really under control. With a 195F thermostat and 70F ambient, what kind of coolant temps would you expect cruising at 70mph and completely staying out of boost? Mine got up to 200 at a light incline. (needle of the stock gauge just started to move a minute or two past 12:00).
Also when I park the car it takes about a minute and I get coolant going into the overflow. I don't think it used to do that before the new block went in. Running 100% distilled water with water-wetter right now.
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Old 10-18-2012, 03:52 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stefanst View Post
On the subject of resolution: I beg to differ...
You better beg forgiveness if you ever want to post-***** on my awesome forum again.

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You usually want to put the resolution where the big changes are happening. And that appears to be at lower rpms. My rpm and map scales are logarithmic and if you look at the 3D map, I think this makes sense. -> why put resolution in areas where nothing changes very much?
I feel standard interpolation works at those low RPM levels, and the break-points you've created above 4000 are not always linear between points. It's your car, set it up how you want, I won't do it like that because there is enough weird stuff going on at higher RPM.
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why put resolution in areas where nothing changes very much?
My daily kind-of looks like this today:



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Originally Posted by stefanst View Post
Hustler: What areas of my map do you think are too aggressive? Or can somebody just post a 16x16 safe road-tune map as a table? I don't want to have to re-enter 256 values. Of course if that saves my engine from premature death, it may be worth considering...
Quote:
You have too much spark angle from 85-135kp / 900-3100
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Old 10-18-2012, 03:58 PM   #7
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Based on my knock sensor tests you could easily be knocking at 80kpa 3500rpm. Try dropping it to 25 to 27 degrees and see if things change
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Old 10-18-2012, 04:01 PM   #8
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What are your enrichment AFR targets and are you hitting them?
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Old 10-18-2012, 04:22 PM   #9
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Unfortunately when the possible knock was occurring my laptop had crashed and wasn't logging anymore.

Here is a log from the same part of the road, under the same tune, EXCEPT for timing retarded by a few percent. I could not hear anything at that point. Just feathering the throttle to get into that 'below 80kpa' area.



So it indeed may have been knock. Will see if I get the knock sensor hooked up tonight. I just soldered the board in last night, but didn't wire it up yet!

I must say I'm currently more concerned with the temperature issue. I hate it when AAA has to pick me up from the PA turnpike...
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Old 10-18-2012, 04:32 PM   #10
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Look at your 1800rpm/100kpa area column, you don't have the piston speed to cash that check and it's costing your a ton of output. Even if you're not experiencing knock there, it's likely that you're really close and combustion is probably enchroaching upon the compression stroke. After tuning my turbo car, I went back and found a lot more output from reducing spark angle there and reducing the VE table value, whilst maintaining AFR.

I've learned a lot since I did my turbo car long ago.
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Old 10-18-2012, 04:36 PM   #11
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Tell us real water temp numbers, not "oh man it's about 12:74 or 1:04, unless you're military then its 1304 hours".

Do you have a belly pan? 200*f is normal operating temp. In daily driving, going north of 215*f is cause for alarm. My daily has a 195*f t-stat in it and does not go north of 215*f with the AC going in traffic in 111*f August heat.
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Old 10-18-2012, 04:37 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stefanst View Post
In other news: I don't think my cooling problem is really under control. With a 195F thermostat and 70F ambient, what kind of coolant temps would you expect cruising at 70mph and completely staying out of boost? Mine got up to 200 at a light incline. (needle of the stock gauge just started to move a minute or two past 12:00).
Also when I park the car it takes about a minute and I get coolant going into the overflow. I don't think it used to do that before the new block went in. Running 100% distilled water with water-wetter right now.
That sounds about right. I'm running a 180 t-stat, 70mph on mine in 65-75 degree weather comes up 188 every morning the past 2-3 weeks now. So yours being 15 degrees hotter sounds like it'd work out to about ~203ish. Usually the rating of the t-stat is when it starts to open, not it's stabilizing temp.
For the overflowing issue, how old is your radiator cap?
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Old 10-18-2012, 04:56 PM   #13
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Sorry- top temperature was 200F (according to TS). Since it's not a super-calibrated measuring system, I figured I need to take this number with a grain of salt.
This is with both fans going, the heater on full-blast. Without the heater I had it go up to over 215. The dash-needle was definitely moving at that point! It never happened with the original block before the swap. That's what has me concerned. I *hope* I'm not dealing with a short between oil-system and water-system here. HG is new, the block was checked with a straight-edge (I know- not the best way). The CH was machined straight.
No evidence of oil in water or water in oil so far...

The rad cap is brand new (1.1bar) and the bubbling also happened with the previous cap. But I don't recall any bubbling with the original block.
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Old 10-18-2012, 10:06 PM   #14
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More news on the cooling: Just installed 180F thermostat. Found out the old stat was stuck half-open. Then I burped ALL the gas out if the system - I hope. We'll see tomorrow...
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Old 10-19-2012, 12:46 AM   #15
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More news on the cooling: Just installed 180F thermostat. Found out the old stat was stuck half-open. Then I burped ALL the gas out if the system - I hope. We'll see tomorrow...
Putting a lower temp thermostat isn't going to make the cooling system more efficient. Run a 195 t-stat like the car is supposed to have. Get a magic-funnel from Lisle...the yellow one. Thank me later.
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Old 10-19-2012, 12:57 AM   #16
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I'm thanking you already!
The 180F thermostat is for my piece of mind. If temps stabilize now 15F lower than before, I'm just a nervous Nelly and everything was A-OK anyways. If there's no change, then there's something else wrong.

BTW: just took over an hour running the car, the front pointing up to the moon in order to try and get all the air out. If this doesn't do it, I will get the magic funnel, but I KNOW that others have bled the coolant without one.

Is there any other trick to bleeding? I'm running the car up to temp, coolant overflows, bubbles everywhere, almost looks like a roiling boil, then I add cold water, shut down the engine, wait for things to cool down and repeat.
I got a funnel that fits rather nicely in the filler-neck, that I keep filled, so there's never air getting into the system.

But I never seem to get rid of all the air. No matter how many times I go, there's always some bubbling and overflowing going on.
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Old 10-19-2012, 01:03 AM   #17
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$40 at O'Reilly.

Bleeding is easy now.
  1. Pour in however much green stuff you want
  2. Leave the car level if you want, I do
  3. Fill with distilled water and make sure the water level stays above the head
  4. Crack the throttle a couple times to get big bubbles out
  5. Keep the water level up
  6. Let the thermostat cycle a second time
  7. Crack the throttle a bunch to get all the water out.
  8. Drop the plunger in
  9. Kill the car
  10. Keep the water level up
  11. Put a fan on the rad and let it cool
  12. Drink one beer
  13. Watch the hoses contract and squeeze down
  14. Pull the plunger
  15. Watch the water level drop as the hoses expand to their natural shape
  16. Put the rad cap back on
  17. You're done and it only took a few minutes
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Old 10-19-2012, 01:05 AM   #18
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I'm running the car up to temp, coolant overflows, bubbles everywhere, almost looks like a roiling boil, then I add cold water, shut down the engine, wait for things to cool down and repeat.
I got a funnel that fits rather nicely in the filler-neck, that I keep filled, so there's never air getting into the system.
Is the water pump working? I never see the water boil in my cars, ever. If the water ever boils, you have air in the head.
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Old 10-19-2012, 01:27 AM   #19
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the upper rad hose gets hot and so does the radiator. So the water pump is working at least a little. And when the fan turns on, the temp goes down quickly.
But I agree - it's not what I'm used to from other cars....
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Old 10-19-2012, 01:36 AM   #20
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Quote:
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AFR targets are similar to what everybody else seems to be running. 14.7 below 80kpa and then progressively richer until they hit 11.5 at 250kpa.
You're doing it wrong.
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