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Old 02-11-2010, 02:19 AM   #1
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Default AF targets to VE - not in use

I got the car with already mspnp installed and it seems that - this table is not used

the car doesn't have a MAF and there is no O2 reading from the MSPNP - instead it uses an independent LC1

does that mean for tuning I have one less thing to adjust - only timing and fuel?



if that is the case who do I go about tuning the car and protecting it from running too lean - which would be better more fuel or less timing

Last edited by thewatcher101; 02-11-2010 at 03:47 AM.
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Old 02-11-2010, 11:12 AM   #2
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If your MSPNP isn't getting an O2 sensor reading, turn your AFR targets off.
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Old 02-11-2010, 12:09 PM   #3
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Indeed. It'd be nice if the LC1 was connected to the MS, but if it isn't you'll want to turn off EGO control by setting controller authority to 0.
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Old 02-11-2010, 01:29 PM   #4
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They are all turned off - what is the best way to tune the car then with this table out of the way

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Old 02-11-2010, 01:35 PM   #5
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Adjust the VE table as you drive (well have someone else adjust or drive.. don't do both!) so that your wideband reads what you want for your A/F ratio.

The AF Target table is for EGO and if you use VE Analyze.

Although I'm new to MS myself, so a more experienced guy can confirm and probably explain better

Also I suggest you read this: http://www.diyautotune.com/tech_arti...squirt_ems.htm
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Old 02-11-2010, 01:48 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thewatcher101 View Post
They are all turned off
You really should turn off EGO itself, which is under Basic Settings -> Exhaust Gas Settings. Otherwise, it may continue to seek the switch point. (Honestly, I don't know what it does when you have tables = always and yet tables = off.)

This is from TS, not MT, but same idea:



Quote:
what is the best way to tune the car then with this table out of the way
On an eddy-current or water brake dyno, with your eyes on the LC1 display, using the realtime VE Table editor.
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Old 02-11-2010, 10:59 PM   #7
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Even better, hook up the wideband.
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Old 02-12-2010, 04:06 AM   #8
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so the only thing i really have to do some adjusting is the fuel table to reach my AF targets I want either at part throttle or WOT - as for timing im just watching out for knocking (have a knock sensor) and retard timing if it knocks?
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Old 02-12-2010, 12:01 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thewatcher101 View Post
so the only thing i really have to do some adjusting is the fuel table to reach my AF targets I want either at part throttle or WOT -
I guess I'll just come right out and ask: Why do you not have your LC-1 connected to the MS?


Quote:
as for timing im just watching out for knocking (have a knock sensor) and retard timing if it knocks?
That's one way to approach it. Another would be to get on a dyno and adjust spark for peak torque, which is not always the same as maximum knock-limited advance.
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Old 02-12-2010, 01:38 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thewatcher101 View Post
so the only thing i really have to do some adjusting is the fuel table to reach my AF targets I want either at part throttle or WOT - as for timing im just watching out for knocking (have a knock sensor) and retard timing if it knocks?
All that will give you is a map that doesn't knock, and can damage your engine to get such a map, too. There's a big difference between a map that doesn't knock and a map that makes peak power.
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Old 02-12-2010, 04:24 PM   #11
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Is there any advantage of hooking up the lc1 I don't want to do any unnecessary work
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Old 02-12-2010, 04:30 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thewatcher101 View Post
Is there any advantage of hooking up the lc1
Several.
1.Closed loop afr control at idle and cruise which will help with fuel economy.
2.The ability to use tunerstudio's absolutely awesome veanalyze live.
3.The ability to datalog your AFR which is just imperative when trying to diagnose problems down the road.

Quote:
I don't want to do any unnecessary work

This is an absolutely terrible thing to say when referring to a modified car.
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Old 02-12-2010, 05:19 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thewatcher101 View Post
I don't want to do any unnecessary work
Hmmm...

Admittedly, I'm a bit of an automotive masochist, particularly where electronics are involved. So my perspective on what constitutes necessary vs. unnecessary is, admittedly, a bit askew.

Rather than me make assumptions about your perspective, let's just ask a series of basic questions so I can get a feel for where you stand. This will be like the test where the optometrist asks you thirty-seven times in a row which is better; A or B, after flipping a lever that makes absolutely no difference whatsoever in how blurry the giant E at the top of the screen is. (At least, for me. I have moderately severe myopia: NV spherical of -4.75.)

So, tell me, for each grouping, which you consider to be more work:

A) Running one wire from your LC-1 to your MS, or
B) Replacing a blown engine.

A) Running one wire from your LC-1 to your MS, or
B) Finding a buyer for a car with a blown engine, and then buying another car.

A) Running one wire from your LC-1 to your MS, or
B) Having to deal with endless ridicule from all of us because you blew your engine.

A) Running one wire from your LC-1 to your MS, or
B) Being hunted for sport in the Guatemalan jungle by a hypersensory xenomorph armed with plasma-state weapons and the ability cloak itself into near-invisibility.




Seriously though, I do have a question for you. You bought this car with the MSPnP already installed, and you're asking us how to tune it. Does this mean that the ECU was not tuner prior to your receiving it, are you unsatisfied with the current state of tune, are you planning to make changes to the configuration, etc.

IOW, what is the goal here?
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Old 02-13-2010, 02:43 AM   #14
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Don't get me wrong, i don't mind doing work but i always believe if it ain't broken don't fix it.

The car was properly tune without the LC-1 attached to the MS - I did some red line pulls and the car is hitting the targets.

As for fuel economy the car gets 34mpg with the hardtop on - and this car is mostly a weekend autox/track car - so mpg doesn't really matter to me


The reason I want to tune the car is because I just need to get it to run well enough - so i can take it to a place to get it properly tune - and tune it enough so they don't have to spend too much time to save myself some money

My question should be - would hooking up the LC-1 to the MS help the tuners at the shop tune my car quicker and better?


The car is running fine but now it is getting SC along with injectors
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Old 02-13-2010, 04:29 AM   #15
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Well, moreover it gives you the ability to log the AFR values with the MS - which will let you see even small changes to you AFR, maybe at accel or such.

Go for it, hook it up.
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Old 02-14-2010, 11:09 AM   #16
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after I hook up my LC-1 to my MS - should i turn back on the AF to VE table - what advantages are there to add that map?
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Old 02-14-2010, 11:55 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Perez View Post
Being hunted for sport in the Guatemalan jungle by a hypersensory xenomorph armed with plasma-state weapons and the ability cloak itself into near-invisibility.
Haha.

You realize that movie had two future governors in it?




OP:

The main advantage to having feedback from WBO2 to MS (point #3 outlined by Jeff) is the ability to datalog, and effectively "tune" your VE table to achieve those targets you outline in the AF table. This is the best tuning you can do for your boosted cells outside of a dyno, and will not only make you faster (with proper targets), but keep you from blowing up the motor (with well researched targets).

That specific map (which you want to turn back on) allows the first point he made in the above post, commonly called closed-loop fuel control. This means that your ECU is making constant adjustments based on actual feedback from the sensor, as opposed to just commanding the injectors to operate on a set pulsewidth from a "look-up" table. This is important since we operate at these conditions a good majority of the time, and VE actually changes with temperature and other variables.
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Old 02-14-2010, 12:11 PM   #18
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sweet, i'll be busy this weekend then - I'll have the tuners turn back on the AF map because this car was tune without it.

I am afraid that adding the stock AF map would mess up my current tune.

This is my current spark and fuel map - this car is non boosted so ignore anything over 100KPA



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Old 02-14-2010, 12:19 PM   #19
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Someone started a good thread on maps if you want to compare...I'm sure I contributed so try advanced search under my user name. Lot of good info on getting the most out of the map resolution where you need it, and some good input on what your targets should be at different loads/rpms etc.

Spark looks conservative in boost, so you can leave it until you start tuning with det cans or want to gamble with someone else's map (usually a bad idea).


Also, targets will be a lot easier to play around with if you switch them from volts to actual air:fuel ratios.
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Old 02-14-2010, 12:29 PM   #20
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sorry lazy to search but how do you convert them to volt to AF - please


thank

When I get the SC - I am going to run FM SC map it is pretty conservative too staying under 24 - since SC don't make that much diff with more timing after that point

One other question - when I start using other peoples map and start adjusting settings - since my car is running great right now - should I ONLY change the boosted portions when adding my SC or copy their entire map completely -

My guess is going to be keeping my 0-100KPA map since my idle is great and cold start isn't too shabby
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