Base Timing Issues
 

So today I went ahead and hooked up my MSPNP that I got off of member on here and I followed all of the directions setting it up found here > How to MegaSquirt your Mazda Miata

The problem I get is no matter how much I try setting different trigger angles and other things I am still getting a shitty idle that bounces and is very high. I also followed several youtube videos posted by thefavs. Still no luck. I am using Tunerstudio lite on my 94 1.8 NA with GM AFM and Narrowband.

I am sure to most of you I am fucking retarded and probably shouldn't be doing this but if you could help I would greatly appreciate it. I been working all day on it and searching the forum trying to figure it out.


EDIT: I was using my macbook with tunerstudio and I found my old pc so I will try using megatune instead in the morning.

Where do we even start:rofl:


Not to be a total dickbag, did you manage to get base timing locked at least? Idle will require some tuning. The complete tunerstudio is well worth the 20 or so bucks.


Also, GET A WIDEBAND!!!!

Did you use the timing "wizard"? On some versions of tunerstudio changing the angle with the wizard doesn't work and you have to actually adjust the angle to 55 or 65 or whatever. This happened to me but once I figured it out my timing mark lined up accordingly

Search much?

Start at post #11:

https://www.miataturbo.net/megasquir...me-help-57133/

I didn't use the wizard and ya I'm using the lite version. I didn't want to buy the full not because.I'm a cheap ass but because if it was bullshit I didn't.want.to pay for something I.couldn't even handle in the lite version. I did go through and was able to get the timing right but.my idle is either bouncy as fuck or way to rough. Which probably means my timing is in fact not right even though its says it is with the timing light. My car runs like shit sounds like I have e303 whatever fucking cams in. So I am going to try megatune first as that's what most the tutorials are using. My lc1 was delayed to be at my house. The only reason I started with out was because tunerstudio has a narrow band option.

Dude you can't do this without a wb02. I guess you could play with the idle VE cells and get it to idle good without one, but then how are you going to tune the rest of the map?

This is what needs to be done.

1) Dial in base timing with timing light. ASAP.
2) dial in air fuel ratio for idle using wbo2
3) adjust idle RPM to desired level either via the ECU settings or the throttle body screw.

Thanks. That's what I figured was the main thing. Honestly I never would have started if it wasn't for tuner studio have the narrowband option. Lesson learned.

Tuner studio has the narrowband option as a joke
To see who's really going to try to use it and post about it here so we can make fun of them:giggle:

lol but really hook up wb02 and report back.

WBO2 not needed (at all) for idle.

WBO2 needed for entire rest of map. So get one (duh).

Detailed instructions provided in link to newb too lazy to search. Did you even look?

When you loaded your Base map you need to change your timeing to fixed at 10 degrees and use the timing light to line up the marks.

Also, disable everything that can remotely change fueling or spark.

Why the fuck are you using a AFM when Megasquirt runs off of MAP?

He was also using a computer made by a fruit company... not all things HAVE to make sense you know... lol jk :giggle:

I think he meant GM IAT, not GM AFM. But, who knows?

It ran and idled. It just felt like shit.

I did, I did and I meant IAC. I was really exhausted after fucking with it all day.

Fruity car with a Fruity Computer, Just seemed to make sense :dunno:

Yes I did. I was super tired last night when I made the post.


EDIT: UPDATE. My LC-1 and Gauge came in today FINALLY fuckin mail service sucks around here. Anyway today I got a lot of work to do and I am setting up for an upcoming art exhibition in Dallas, but I plan on getting up early tomorrow morning and hooking it up and trying again before I go to work at 1 and maybe finish after I get off. Nonetheless, I havent given up yet.

So I got home early and began installation of my LC1 and DB gauge. So far I have taken my time and have read the instructions about 30 million times so I get it right the first time. I got the gauge sitting snug in the left driver air vent and I used one of the switch blanks for the button and light. Not gonna lie, It looks legit and I have everything tied in per directions now I just need to finish up getting it to the MS and it will be done. Going Slow Trying to Get Things Just Right.

Sigh. I'm really trying to help you, you know.

OK, get ready for the ULTIMATE spoon feed . . . :

"Here's a procedure that worked really well for me in setting up MSPNP9093 idle:

1. Setup idle VE first. I would recommend shooting for maximum vacuum in setting up idle VE because it is a good, non-noisy signal at idle conditions. It ends up being ~stoichiometric, but it is easier to set than using AFR. Use the following steps:
a. Change Idle Control Algorithm to "PWM" and "Warmup Only." Set your minimum duty cycle to 19 and your "Idle Duty at Upper Temp (DC)" to 19. What we are doing here is eliminating variables and putting the idle air control valve under your direct control.
b. Start the car and let it warm up. You should notice that once the "Slow Idle (Upper) Temp (F)" is reached, your idle duty cycle should be fixed at 19.
c. Now, adjust your idle screw to give you an RPM that will keep the car alive while we mess with idle area VE. 1000RPM should work fine.
d. Were going to find the best VE for your idle, knowing that all other variables are fixed. Go to your "Fuel VE Table 1" and note your current operating kPa and RPM. We're going to change all of the VE cells surrounding this point so that we get a constant VE without interpolation. We're shooting for maximum vacuum (lowest kPa). In my case, I ended up at a VE of 40. It was a very distinct peak.
e. Once you've found your idle VE, set all of the cells in the idle region to this VE to provide stability for your engine. That would be all cells up to about 35kPa and 1500RPM. Your idle VE should be the minimum VE in your map.

2. Now setup idle timing. Just use something between 10-15 and be done with it. If you want to use spark table switching to stabilize your AC-on idle, then use a lower setting, otherwise just set 15. As with VE, make sure all of your idle cells have the same timing to provide stability to the engine. In addition, adjust the timing in your lowest RPM column to idle timing all the way up to 100kPa to provide constant timing post-start in the area where the engine catches and creates vacuum.

3. With VE and idle timing set, and while still in "Warmup Only" mode, adjust your idle air screw for your target warm idle speed. I adjusted for 900 RPM. The basic idea here is that we are setting the minimum air bleed (consisting of minimum DC + idle air screw). We want the closed loop idle control to be able to add air for loads such as lights, AC, higher outside air temperatures, etc. But we should not be relying on closed loop idle to provide our minimum idle air setting. Note that your idle air screw should be at least a full turn open to avoid large % orifice size changes with metal cooling and heating. If this results in too high of an RPM, then reduce idle timing. You can see how these things are interrelated.

4. With all of the above done, you can now return to "PWM" and "Closed Loop Only" and mess around with closed loop settings to provide recovery from loads. Note that if you don't have big loads like AC, plenty of people are content to just use "Warmup Only." It is simple and stable."

Hey I appreciate your time writing this hornetball. Thanks a bunch. Ill be back with results as I really would love to keep my AC.

You were given this information in Post #4.

Yeah I know. Im not a that big of a dumb shit I can read. I was just saying thanks for the help and moving the info over to one thread for me.

So a little update. Its idling right now at 1k with AFR at around 14.9 and at this point I am going to purchase Tunerstudio and use try autotune feature. I been reading great things and I figure it will hopefully allow me to get to the dyno safely for further tuning by a professional.

Autotune or VE analyzer will do a MUCH better job on your AFR tune than a "professional" tuner. I wouldn't waste your money.

The only thing you should tune on a dyno is the spark map.

I suspect you'll get a better idle if you richen up a bit.

Well I got the FULL version including megalog and the car runs pretty good now. I been playing with trying to get the AC set up now. I got it to the point where it wont die when I rev it up and has about a 1200 rpm idle when ac is off but if I turn on the AC at a standstill it just about dies before it saves it self and is good to go. Im not sure if it gets any better or if thats the best i can do as far as AC integration into MS1.

EDIT: I forgot to mention I am going to try Joe Perez' FAQ in the sticky when I get a chance.

AC with MS1 is a challenge.

I've setup two spark maps (only difference being in the idle area) and wired an air leak with my purge valve to help. It's pretty good, but still not the same as stock.

I'm considering delving into the code to change minimum idle DC when the AC compressor is engaged (since the input is already there for the spark map switching). But I'm weak with assembly.

A little Update. Well I been playing with the Closed Loop Idle settings and I have managed to get the car to idle with AC ON at 970ishrpm and then with AC OFF at around 1200-1100rpm. When i turn on the AC the car drops to around 300-400 rpm then rises and settles. So far the car has not died when revving with the AC ON. My next task to is deal with the variable idle speed with the AC OFF. I am thinking if I leave the idle settings alone and adjusting the spark map. I figure once tackle the variable idle speed with AC OFF I will do another Autotune. I am not sure if its necessary but something in my gut says to do so.

I went ahead and put it back in WarmUp Only. I am probably going to upgrade soon. I just cat decide if I want to upgrade to MS2 or MS3 daughterboard.

after reading this thread a couple of times, especially this...

"1. Setup idle VE first. I would recommend shooting for maximum vacuum in setting up idle VE because it is a good, non-noisy signal at idle conditions. It ends up being ~stoichiometric, but it is easier to set than using AFR. Use the following steps:
a. Change Idle Control Algorithm to "PWM" and "Warmup Only." Set your minimum duty cycle to 19 and your "Idle Duty at Upper Temp (DC)" to 19. What we are doing here is eliminating variables and putting the idle air control valve under your direct control.
b. Start the car and let it warm up. You should notice that once the "Slow Idle (Upper) Temp (F)" is reached, your idle duty cycle should be fixed at 19.
c. Now, adjust your idle screw to give you an RPM that will keep the car alive while we mess with idle area VE. 1000RPM should work fine.
d. Were going to find the best VE for your idle, knowing that all other variables are fixed. Go to your "Fuel VE Table 1" and note your current operating kPa and RPM. We're going to change all of the VE cells surrounding this point so that we get a constant VE without interpolation. We're shooting for maximum vacuum (lowest kPa). In my case, I ended up at a VE of 40. It was a very distinct peak.
e. Once you've found your idle VE, set all of the cells in the idle region to this VE to provide stability for your engine. That would be all cells up to about 35kPa and 1500RPM. Your idle VE should be the minimum VE in your map.

2. Now setup idle timing. Just use something between 10-15 and be done with it. If you want to use spark table switching to stabilize your AC-on idle, then use a lower setting, otherwise just set 15. As with VE, make sure all of your idle cells have the same timing to provide stability to the engine. In addition, adjust the timing in your lowest RPM column to idle timing all the way up to 100kPa to provide constant timing post-start in the area where the engine catches and creates vacuum.

3. With VE and idle timing set, and while still in "Warmup Only" mode, adjust your idle air screw for your target warm idle speed. I adjusted for 900 RPM. The basic idea here is that we are setting the minimum air bleed (consisting of minimum DC + idle air screw). We want the closed loop idle control to be able to add air for loads such as lights, AC, higher outside air temperatures, etc. But we should not be relying on closed loop idle to provide our minimum idle air setting. Note that your idle air screw should be at least a full turn open to avoid large % orifice size changes with metal cooling and heating. If this results in too high of an RPM, then reduce idle timing. You can see how these things are interrelated.

4. With all of the above done, you can now return to "PWM" and "Closed Loop Only" and mess around with closed loop settings to provide recovery from loads. Note that if you don't have big loads like AC, plenty of people are content to just use "Warmup Only." It is simple and stable."

I thought Hornetball was going to be my HERO, until....

started my car [94, NB1 block--crank sensor/wheel, NB2 head--VVT, MS-PNP]

opened PWM 2-wire idle control dialog box

set PWM and warmup only

oophs... available settings don't match Hornetball's writeup

open loop / closed loop


idle frequency [hz^-?] 19 / 19

cranking [dc] 12 / 12

minimum [dc] -- / 9

closed [dc] -- / 9

Warmup Settings

idle duty at lower temp 12 / --

idle duty at upper temp 9 / --

Idle Speed Target

fast idle, lower temp [*F] 180 / 180

slow idle, upper temp [*F] 120 / 120

fast idle [rpm] -- / 1400

slow idle [rpm -- / 900

Dash Pot Settings

TPS threshold [ADC] -- / 32

idle activation [rpm] -- / 300

dash pot settle, rpm [.01 sec] -- / 44

dash pot adder [dc] -- / 1

so the above is what I worked out to achieve a fairly stable STATIC idle
and I can even drive it without if stalling at every stop

now to get the VE down and the AFRs up

any suggestions on the above, or other comments?

After I paid for TS and Installed a wideband it was easy as pie to set up my MSPNP. The only thing I had issues with was utilizing my AC however hornetball has a write up out now that adds "idle up" to MS1. Unfortunately I sent my MSPNP to DIY to be upgraded to MS2.(still waiting to get after a month of being there) so I havent gotten a chance to try hornetball's write up but its something you may want to look into if your having AC issues. Idle wasnt an issue for me after I ran autotune though.

That write-up was done on a 1st generation MSPNP (MS1-based) using MegaTune.

Not sure how applicable the write-up is to MS2/MS3 based systems -- although the fundamental principle of setting up your base, no-load idle as a mechanical, minimum air leak function and using closed loop only to boost your air leak when you have loads is universal.

TunerStudio uses slightly different nomenclature than the old MegaTune. "Warmup Mode" would be analogous to "Open Loop" (and, for the record, "Open Loop" is a much better term).

I am using a 1st gen MSPNP
and TunerStudio
guess I could reinstall MegaTune until I get a more stable idle
then switch back to TunerStudio
would that make the write up match?

[do you know how hard it is to ask an airdale for help-lol]

Yeah, that should make things match. But other than substituting "Warmup" for "Open Loop," seems like the other names match pretty well.

Happy to help. Close Air Support was always a specialty. "Sparkle" on.

the P-cola to Key Field gave you away

=======================

beginning to think I have an intermittment air leak under vacuum conditions somewhere around the intake manifold

for a while I had my 4 LS2 coils mounted on a bracket affixed to the fender-side of the intake manifold [it is a square top], any way, the vibrations cracked three brackets so we remounted the coils out on the fender well above the shock

maybe I need to rethink bracing the intake manifold, like the OEM manifold was braced

another indication, I think, is I can completely close the idle air adjustment screw, and have an air gap for the butterfly adjustment screw, and the engine still runs,

A healthy engine with a well tuned idle will pull 20"Hg at 900RPM.

There are a lot of potential vacuum leaks. Fuel injector seals. The nipple by the firewall (does the square top have this?).

Haven't heard of people having vacuum issues running without the brace (although some think it is a contributor to breaking throttle shafts because of those vibrations you mentioned). I'd check the obvious stuff before messing with the IM mounting.

Well, that rules out even the slightest possibility of my engine being considered "healthy." :D

Yeah, my 200K mile 1.6 used to pull around 17-18". This reman that I dropped in (has about 10K now) is pulling a solid 20.

that's no help, pulling 20-21"hg@1100rpm

ready to just pull the MS-PNP+VCM and AEM W/B
and reinstall, have a Reverent-build MS2+VVT
and start all over again

well, a status update

https://fbcdn-sphotos-b-a.akamaihd.n...61045576_n.jpg

Healthy engine combination!

Why did you cut the dyno run at under 6500rpm? Looks like you reached peak power before that point, but would still make usable power 6500-7000 rpm.