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Old 05-27-2013, 12:58 AM   #1
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Default Base Timing Issues

So today I went ahead and hooked up my MSPNP that I got off of member on here and I followed all of the directions setting it up found here > How to MegaSquirt your Mazda Miata

The problem I get is no matter how much I try setting different trigger angles and other things I am still getting a shitty idle that bounces and is very high. I also followed several youtube videos posted by thefavs. Still no luck. I am using Tunerstudio lite on my 94 1.8 NA with GM AFM and Narrowband.

I am sure to most of you I am ******* retarded and probably shouldn't be doing this but if you could help I would greatly appreciate it. I been working all day on it and searching the forum trying to figure it out.


EDIT: I was using my macbook with tunerstudio and I found my old pc so I will try using megatune instead in the morning.

Last edited by ScottyP3821; 05-27-2013 at 01:15 AM.
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Old 05-27-2013, 09:44 AM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ScottyP3821 View Post
...Tunerstudio lite... ...GM AFM and Narrowband...


...******* retarded...


EDIT: ...macbook with tunerstudio... ... I will try using megatune...
Where do we even start


Not to be a total dickbag, did you manage to get base timing locked at least? Idle will require some tuning. The complete tunerstudio is well worth the 20 or so bucks.


Also, GET A WIDEBAND!!!!

Last edited by Oscar; 05-27-2013 at 09:58 AM.
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Old 05-27-2013, 11:26 AM   #3
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Did you use the timing "wizard"? On some versions of tunerstudio changing the angle with the wizard doesn't work and you have to actually adjust the angle to 55 or 65 or whatever. This happened to me but once I figured it out my timing mark lined up accordingly
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Old 05-27-2013, 11:41 AM   #4
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Originally Posted by ScottyP3821 View Post
I am ******* retarded and probably shouldn't be doing this
Search much?

Start at post #11:

https://www.miataturbo.net/megasquir...me-help-57133/
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Old 05-27-2013, 12:16 PM   #5
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I didn't use the wizard and ya I'm using the lite version. I didn't want to buy the full not because.I'm a cheap *** but because if it was bullshit I didn't.want.to pay for something I.couldn't even handle in the lite version. I did go through and was able to get the timing right but.my idle is either bouncy as **** or way to rough. Which probably means my timing is in fact not right even though its says it is with the timing light. My car runs like **** sounds like I have e303 whatever ******* cams in. So I am going to try megatune first as that's what most the tutorials are using. My lc1 was delayed to be at my house. The only reason I started with out was because tunerstudio has a narrow band option.
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Old 05-27-2013, 01:54 PM   #6
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Dude you can't do this without a wb02. I guess you could play with the idle VE cells and get it to idle good without one, but then how are you going to tune the rest of the map?

This is what needs to be done.

1) Dial in base timing with timing light. ASAP.
2) dial in air fuel ratio for idle using wbo2
3) adjust idle RPM to desired level either via the ECU settings or the throttle body screw.
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Old 05-27-2013, 02:08 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by Fireindc View Post
Dude you can't do this without a wb02. I guess you could play with the idle VE cells and get it to idle good without one, but then how are you going to tune the rest of the map?

This is what needs to be done.

1) Dial in base timing with timing light. ASAP.
2) dial in air fuel ratio for idle using wbo2
3) adjust idle RPM to desired level either via the ECU settings or the throttle body screw.
Thanks. That's what I figured was the main thing. Honestly I never would have started if it wasn't for tuner studio have the narrowband option. Lesson learned.
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Old 05-27-2013, 02:18 PM   #8
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Tuner studio has the narrowband option as a joke
To see who's really going to try to use it and post about it here so we can make fun of them

lol but really hook up wb02 and report back.
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Old 05-27-2013, 02:49 PM   #9
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WBO2 not needed (at all) for idle.

WBO2 needed for entire rest of map. So get one (duh).

Detailed instructions provided in link to newb too lazy to search. Did you even look?
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Old 05-27-2013, 04:09 PM   #10
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When you loaded your Base map you need to change your timeing to fixed at 10 degrees and use the timing light to line up the marks.

Also, disable everything that can remotely change fueling or spark.

Why the **** are you using a AFM when Megasquirt runs off of MAP?
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Old 05-27-2013, 04:14 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Impuls View Post
Why the **** are you using a AFM when Megasquirt runs off of MAP?
He was also using a computer made by a fruit company... not all things HAVE to make sense you know... lol jk
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Old 05-27-2013, 07:19 PM   #12
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I think he meant GM IAT, not GM AFM. But, who knows?
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Old 05-27-2013, 09:22 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by hornetball View Post
WBO2 not needed (at all) for idle.

WBO2 needed for entire rest of map. So get one (duh).

Detailed instructions provided in link to newb too lazy to search. Did you even look?
It ran and idled. It just felt like ****.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Impuls View Post
When you loaded your Base map you need to change your timeing to fixed at 10 degrees and use the timing light to line up the marks.

Also, disable everything that can remotely change fueling or spark.

Why the **** are you using a AFM when Megasquirt runs off of MAP?
I did, I did and I meant IAC. I was really exhausted after ******* with it all day.

Quote:
Originally Posted by supercooper View Post
He was also using a computer made by a fruit company... not all things HAVE to make sense you know... lol jk
Fruity car with a Fruity Computer, Just seemed to make sense

Quote:
Originally Posted by hornetball View Post
I think he meant GM IAT, not GM AFM. But, who knows?
Yes I did. I was super tired last night when I made the post.


EDIT: UPDATE. My LC-1 and Gauge came in today FINALLY ****** mail service sucks around here. Anyway today I got a lot of work to do and I am setting up for an upcoming art exhibition in Dallas, but I plan on getting up early tomorrow morning and hooking it up and trying again before I go to work at 1 and maybe finish after I get off. Nonetheless, I havent given up yet.

Last edited by ScottyP3821; 05-28-2013 at 01:12 PM.
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Old 05-28-2013, 10:05 PM   #14
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So I got home early and began installation of my LC1 and DB gauge. So far I have taken my time and have read the instructions about 30 million times so I get it right the first time. I got the gauge sitting snug in the left driver air vent and I used one of the switch blanks for the button and light. Not gonna lie, It looks legit and I have everything tied in per directions now I just need to finish up getting it to the MS and it will be done. Going Slow Trying to Get Things Just Right.
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Old 05-28-2013, 11:38 PM   #15
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Sigh. I'm really trying to help you, you know.

OK, get ready for the ULTIMATE spoon feed . . . :

"Here's a procedure that worked really well for me in setting up MSPNP9093 idle:

1. Setup idle VE first. I would recommend shooting for maximum vacuum in setting up idle VE because it is a good, non-noisy signal at idle conditions. It ends up being ~stoichiometric, but it is easier to set than using AFR. Use the following steps:
a. Change Idle Control Algorithm to "PWM" and "Warmup Only." Set your minimum duty cycle to 19 and your "Idle Duty at Upper Temp (DC)" to 19. What we are doing here is eliminating variables and putting the idle air control valve under your direct control.
b. Start the car and let it warm up. You should notice that once the "Slow Idle (Upper) Temp (F)" is reached, your idle duty cycle should be fixed at 19.
c. Now, adjust your idle screw to give you an RPM that will keep the car alive while we mess with idle area VE. 1000RPM should work fine.
d. Were going to find the best VE for your idle, knowing that all other variables are fixed. Go to your "Fuel VE Table 1" and note your current operating kPa and RPM. We're going to change all of the VE cells surrounding this point so that we get a constant VE without interpolation. We're shooting for maximum vacuum (lowest kPa). In my case, I ended up at a VE of 40. It was a very distinct peak.
e. Once you've found your idle VE, set all of the cells in the idle region to this VE to provide stability for your engine. That would be all cells up to about 35kPa and 1500RPM. Your idle VE should be the minimum VE in your map.

2. Now setup idle timing. Just use something between 10-15 and be done with it. If you want to use spark table switching to stabilize your AC-on idle, then use a lower setting, otherwise just set 15. As with VE, make sure all of your idle cells have the same timing to provide stability to the engine. In addition, adjust the timing in your lowest RPM column to idle timing all the way up to 100kPa to provide constant timing post-start in the area where the engine catches and creates vacuum.

3. With VE and idle timing set, and while still in "Warmup Only" mode, adjust your idle air screw for your target warm idle speed. I adjusted for 900 RPM. The basic idea here is that we are setting the minimum air bleed (consisting of minimum DC + idle air screw). We want the closed loop idle control to be able to add air for loads such as lights, AC, higher outside air temperatures, etc. But we should not be relying on closed loop idle to provide our minimum idle air setting. Note that your idle air screw should be at least a full turn open to avoid large % orifice size changes with metal cooling and heating. If this results in too high of an RPM, then reduce idle timing. You can see how these things are interrelated.

4. With all of the above done, you can now return to "PWM" and "Closed Loop Only" and mess around with closed loop settings to provide recovery from loads. Note that if you don't have big loads like AC, plenty of people are content to just use "Warmup Only." It is simple and stable."

Last edited by hornetball; 05-29-2013 at 12:46 AM.
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Old 05-29-2013, 09:31 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hornetball View Post
Sigh. I'm really trying to help you, you know.

OK, get ready for the ULTIMATE spoon feed . . . :

"Here's a procedure that worked really well for me in setting up MSPNP9093 idle:

1. Setup idle VE first. I would recommend shooting for maximum vacuum in setting up idle VE because it is a good, non-noisy signal at idle conditions. It ends up being ~stoichiometric, but it is easier to set than using AFR. Use the following steps:
a. Change Idle Control Algorithm to "PWM" and "Warmup Only." Set your minimum duty cycle to 19 and your "Idle Duty at Upper Temp (DC)" to 19. What we are doing here is eliminating variables and putting the idle air control valve under your direct control.
b. Start the car and let it warm up. You should notice that once the "Slow Idle (Upper) Temp (F)" is reached, your idle duty cycle should be fixed at 19.
c. Now, adjust your idle screw to give you an RPM that will keep the car alive while we mess with idle area VE. 1000RPM should work fine.
d. Were going to find the best VE for your idle, knowing that all other variables are fixed. Go to your "Fuel VE Table 1" and note your current operating kPa and RPM. We're going to change all of the VE cells surrounding this point so that we get a constant VE without interpolation. We're shooting for maximum vacuum (lowest kPa). In my case, I ended up at a VE of 40. It was a very distinct peak.
e. Once you've found your idle VE, set all of the cells in the idle region to this VE to provide stability for your engine. That would be all cells up to about 35kPa and 1500RPM. Your idle VE should be the minimum VE in your map.

2. Now setup idle timing. Just use something between 10-15 and be done with it. If you want to use spark table switching to stabilize your AC-on idle, then use a lower setting, otherwise just set 15. As with VE, make sure all of your idle cells have the same timing to provide stability to the engine. In addition, adjust the timing in your lowest RPM column to idle timing all the way up to 100kPa to provide constant timing post-start in the area where the engine catches and creates vacuum.

3. With VE and idle timing set, and while still in "Warmup Only" mode, adjust your idle air screw for your target warm idle speed. I adjusted for 900 RPM. The basic idea here is that we are setting the minimum air bleed (consisting of minimum DC + idle air screw). We want the closed loop idle control to be able to add air for loads such as lights, AC, higher outside air temperatures, etc. But we should not be relying on closed loop idle to provide our minimum idle air setting. Note that your idle air screw should be at least a full turn open to avoid large % orifice size changes with metal cooling and heating. If this results in too high of an RPM, then reduce idle timing. You can see how these things are interrelated.

4. With all of the above done, you can now return to "PWM" and "Closed Loop Only" and mess around with closed loop settings to provide recovery from loads. Note that if you don't have big loads like AC, plenty of people are content to just use "Warmup Only." It is simple and stable."
Hey I appreciate your time writing this hornetball. Thanks a bunch. Ill be back with results as I really would love to keep my AC.
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Old 05-29-2013, 09:48 AM   #17
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Hey I appreciate your time writing this hornetball. Thanks a bunch.
You were given this information in Post #4.
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Old 05-29-2013, 11:36 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by hornetball View Post
You were given this information in Post #4.
Yeah I know. Im not a that big of a dumb **** I can read. I was just saying thanks for the help and moving the info over to one thread for me.
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Old 05-30-2013, 10:30 AM   #19
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So a little update. Its idling right now at 1k with AFR at around 14.9 and at this point I am going to purchase Tunerstudio and use try autotune feature. I been reading great things and I figure it will hopefully allow me to get to the dyno safely for further tuning by a professional.
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Old 05-30-2013, 10:57 AM   #20
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Autotune or VE analyzer will do a MUCH better job on your AFR tune than a "professional" tuner. I wouldn't waste your money.

The only thing you should tune on a dyno is the spark map.

I suspect you'll get a better idle if you richen up a bit.
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