Calling all MS gurus - scooter EFI conversion help
 

Big bore kit, fan controlled oil cooler and EFI conversion on the scooter is done.

Pretty successful so far. Test run (with a crappy ass tune) shows massive improvement everywhere, even though I just ran 5000 rpm max on the not yet broken in engine. That and I do not trust the tune.

Anyway..

I am attaching the .msq and log files, as well as a link to the entire documentation that came with the kit.

The problem is, the thing will not even run with a proper req. fuel value. It only starts if I pinch the MAP line and keep it pinched (meaning, I am tricking the system for more fuel). Injector is 80g/min. Comes to 106cc/min.

So, I raised the "injector characteristics" value to 3400 microseconds. That is a huge leap, but it will not run with anything less than that.

With a req. fuel of 10.2 and above opening time, it runs pretty well.

Here come the questions:

There is no way the thing will enter autotune. I keep getting the "tuning point outside window" warning...
I tried scaling the VE table, AFR table up and down, to no avail.
I then checked the .ini file, and found no provision for autotune.. Is this normal?
Later, I added the necessary provisions for autotune with extended parameters. Still no response.

Best I can get in terms of AFR is 12.90. The system uses a narrow band O2.
(I was getting occasional pops on lifts during the test ride)
There is also great discrepancy in target and switch voltage information in the system. I plugged in a whole bunch of numbers, with varying results, all failed to make the AFR change.

Switching from speed density to alpha-n produces great results in terms of starting and throttle response, but I really do not know how to tune in that configuration.

This thing is called EFI tune, version 2.25.

Ecu version is 2.305... I see that there is a firmware update available to version 3.2.4. Should I go ahead and update?


Please look over the info and hold my hand guys. The vendor is merely a one way inbox for e-mails for assistance. And their phone seems to be a ringtone playing device, it is never answered.


Link to the EFI kit:

http://www.mbe-motorsports.com/catal...roducts_id/190

Link to ALL documentation on the said kit:

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/57bama4c9aifvcg/2W9p70kEXW

The log file is in .xls format, but MLV opens it.

Thank you!

You need a wideband. :)

12.9 AFR means your lean. 14.7 means your perfect. Above 14.7 means your rich.

That's literally all the narrow band can do. Ditch it for a wideband, you can't tune (auto or manual) without one.

uuhhh fixed that for you ;)

Whoops, thanks. What he said.

C'mon guys..

This is a straight up single cylinder N/A scooter engine.

And, zillions of vehicles are running on NB O2 sensors.

Help me out, damit.

are you seriously using Megatune!?

Yes, because the damn thing does not open in TS.

Speak to Phil Tobin?

Re the Narrowband comment, those thousands of cars are already tuned and then use the NB sensor to make minor stoich adjustments when the car is in closed loop.

I seriously doubt that the manufacturers will have tuned the engine with a NB sensor....

Vehicles that run on NB O2 sensors have already been tuned.

Your kit has not been tuned before, so you can't rely on the NB to tune it.

Get a wideband. I wish I could tell you that you can tune off a NB sensor, unfortunately you can't.

Good thing I have a spare WB setup, then...

Get tunerstudio working, then use an actual autotune that works.

tune using "include AFR" in the algorithum, make your AFR targets pretty much 14.7 throughout, and once it's pretty dead on and the VE map tuned, you can simply change the targets to see the AFRs you always want to run.

Where the hell is the build thread on this scooter?!!?

haha what he said: this thing is suhweet

Tim I have a gazillion pics.
I promise I will start a build thread as soon as I sort these problems out.

And, you know, Reverant lives practically next door to me. If he was having a problem, I would be knocking on his door the next morning to offer help.
I am truly offended he has not shown up yet. Geez.

Yeah, for sure.

Geez

:D

You can tune with a NB... I did it with MLV, and got the car fairly close (confirmed after installing a wideband). It just won't be perfect (in my case, it was a little richer than necessary). It also takes a loooong time.

If you tune the method I said, using incorporate AFR, it should be easy. Once you get the VE table tuned to 14.7 AFR based off the NB, you can simply change the AFR targets and you'll hit those numbers.

I see no reason to involve MLV, unless you're too cheap to pay for TS License.

Yeah, I'm not suggesting that he use MLV. I'm just discounting the theories that it's not possible to tune with a NB.

It's not, you yourself said you were off. Big difference between 11:1 and 14.6:1. NB doesn't know this difference.

The NB doesn't know the difference, but the math works. Like was mentioned before, if you tune for 14.7, then you can do the math to hit your target rpm. This is how I tune on the dyno too, and it works. To make it even easier, MLV and Autotune do the math for you! No, it won't be perfect, but you can get very acceptable results.

For instance, if you tune for 14.7, and you want to take a cell (or range) to 12.5 AFR, then you just need to calculate the multiplier:

14.7 / 12.5 = 1.176

Now multiply the cell(s) by 1.176, and you'll be at about 12.5 AFR.

I have to concur, I've tuned with a NB sensor, albeit on an n/a car.

It's a complete ball ache and takes way longer, but you can achieve a satisapfactory tune.

Mine too concurred once id installed a wideband. I think I did it the same method as yourself, with MLV.

Using brains suggestion of ncorporate AFR and tuning everything to stoich then adjust the targets to what you want is also sound advice as long as the engine is n/a IMO.

yep, it's simple math at that point.

Maybe I am on a wrong forum.

Do people on this forum actually tell others to do power runs aiming for 14.7 so that they can then do the math? And how do you verify that your tune is actually ok?

Is that you John Wayne? Is this me?

No, I don't tune for 14.7. But MLV or Autotune can see 14.7, and therefore determine what 12.5 (or whatever) is. Verify on a dyno... or with a wideband :-D

Initially, you'd tune the VE table, with incorporate AFR on, and your AFR targets pretty much set at stoich throughout. Then, adjust your AFR targets, once the VE table has been tuned and you will be hitting your targets as inputted in the AFR table. By doing it this way, you're making a true VE table, not a "PW" table.

Because if your VE table is able to hit stoich throughout, and since the AFR targets are part of the fuel equation, then changing the AFR targets will add/subtract fuel based on the equation.

where:

PW = ReqFuel * VE * MAP * stoich / targetAFR * GammaE

as opposed to:

PW = ReqFuel * VE * MAP * GammaE


tuning at stoich will mean stoich / targetAFR = 1

then if you want to target 12.0:1, 14.7 / 12 = 1.225, so you'll add 22.5% more fuel.

I dont really see how else you can tune a NB.

Brain pretty much explained how to tune on a refined ecu. IMO anything else that doesnt allow the use of a VE and target afr table like MS does with incorporate afr is a massive waste of time and shouldn't be bought because the people who made it are either lazy or idiots.

FWIW, I created a tune from complete scratch using a NB sensor. I sorta guessed on my initial map. Then I tuned idle... then added 500 rpms... then 500 more, and so on.

I had to do this because I was using Airflow Meter mode (no MAP sensor).

Here is my action plan:

I will first upgrade the firmware to 3.2.4 so I can use TS for tuning.

Then, I will install a wideband + gauge to get all values right. Keeping the WB setup, or reverting back to NB once it is tuned is something that is up in the air at this point.

My biggest fear is completely screwing it up with this method. This is because the system is modified to begin with, and I really do not know if they used standard I/O ports. In other words, I am not sure whether or not I will be able to use the existing wiring harness once I upgrade the firmware in the ECU.

What the hell... It will be a great learning experience. The scooter has tons more power already. Push comes to shove, I can always start from scratch and build a dedicated MS for it.

Right, Rev? ;)

with that being said, I still dont do it that way*. :)




* only cause I dont want to retune to end up with the same end result.

I will however, have a ton of questions for you guys.

Here's the first one:

What's best for a single cylinder, 4 cycle engine:
* Speed density
* Alpha-N
* Hybrid

I see that quite a few bike engines use Alpha-N.

What do you guys think?

Depends, can you get a decent MAP signal? You could do hybrid/ITB mode if your ecu supports that.