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Old 04-09-2013, 10:56 PM   #1
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Default Calling all MS gurus - scooter EFI conversion help

Big bore kit, fan controlled oil cooler and EFI conversion on the scooter is done.

Pretty successful so far. Test run (with a crappy *** tune) shows massive improvement everywhere, even though I just ran 5000 rpm max on the not yet broken in engine. That and I do not trust the tune.

Anyway..

I am attaching the .msq and log files, as well as a link to the entire documentation that came with the kit.

The problem is, the thing will not even run with a proper req. fuel value. It only starts if I pinch the MAP line and keep it pinched (meaning, I am tricking the system for more fuel). Injector is 80g/min. Comes to 106cc/min.

So, I raised the "injector characteristics" value to 3400 microseconds. That is a huge leap, but it will not run with anything less than that.

With a req. fuel of 10.2 and above opening time, it runs pretty well.

Here come the questions:

There is no way the thing will enter autotune. I keep getting the "tuning point outside window" warning...
I tried scaling the VE table, AFR table up and down, to no avail.
I then checked the .ini file, and found no provision for autotune.. Is this normal?
Later, I added the necessary provisions for autotune with extended parameters. Still no response.

Best I can get in terms of AFR is 12.90. The system uses a narrow band O2.
(I was getting occasional pops on lifts during the test ride)
There is also great discrepancy in target and switch voltage information in the system. I plugged in a whole bunch of numbers, with varying results, all failed to make the AFR change.

Switching from speed density to alpha-n produces great results in terms of starting and throttle response, but I really do not know how to tune in that configuration.

This thing is called EFI tune, version 2.25.

Ecu version is 2.305... I see that there is a firmware update available to version 3.2.4. Should I go ahead and update?


Please look over the info and hold my hand guys. The vendor is merely a one way inbox for e-mails for assistance. And their phone seems to be a ringtone playing device, it is never answered.


Link to the EFI kit:

http://www.mbe-motorsports.com/catal...roducts_id/190

Link to ALL documentation on the said kit:

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/57bama4c9aifvcg/2W9p70kEXW

The log file is in .xls format, but MLV opens it.

Thank you!
Attached Files
File Type: msq microsquirt201304081956.msq (16.0 KB, 74 views)
File Type: xls datalog201304071840.xls (29.4 KB, 78 views)
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Old 04-10-2013, 04:02 AM   #2
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You need a wideband.
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Old 04-10-2013, 05:13 AM   #3
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12.9 AFR means your lean. 14.7 means your perfect. Above 14.7 means your rich.

That's literally all the narrow band can do. Ditch it for a wideband, you can't tune (auto or manual) without one.
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Old 04-10-2013, 05:21 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by curly View Post
12.9 AFR means your rich. 14.7 means your perfect. Above 14.7 means your lean.

That's literally all the narrow band can do. Ditch it for a wideband, you can't tune (auto or manual) without one.
uuhhh fixed that for you
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Old 04-10-2013, 05:24 AM   #5
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Whoops, thanks. What he said.
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Old 04-10-2013, 09:21 AM   #6
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C'mon guys..

This is a straight up single cylinder N/A scooter engine.

And, zillions of vehicles are running on NB O2 sensors.

Help me out, damit.
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Old 04-10-2013, 09:38 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Godless Commie View Post
There is no way the thing will enter autotune. I keep getting the "tuning point outside window" warning...

are you seriously using Megatune!?
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Old 04-10-2013, 09:43 AM   #8
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Yes, because the damn thing does not open in TS.
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Old 04-10-2013, 09:51 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Godless Commie View Post
Yes, because the damn thing does not open in TS.
Speak to Phil Tobin?

Re the Narrowband comment, those thousands of cars are already tuned and then use the NB sensor to make minor stoich adjustments when the car is in closed loop.

I seriously doubt that the manufacturers will have tuned the engine with a NB sensor....
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Old 04-10-2013, 09:57 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Godless Commie View Post
C'mon guys..

This is a straight up single cylinder N/A scooter engine.

And, zillions of vehicles are running on NB O2 sensors.

Help me out, damit.
Vehicles that run on NB O2 sensors have already been tuned.

Your kit has not been tuned before, so you can't rely on the NB to tune it.

Get a wideband. I wish I could tell you that you can tune off a NB sensor, unfortunately you can't.
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Old 04-10-2013, 10:16 AM   #11
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Good thing I have a spare WB setup, then...
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Old 04-10-2013, 10:21 AM   #12
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Get tunerstudio working, then use an actual autotune that works.

tune using "include AFR" in the algorithum, make your AFR targets pretty much 14.7 throughout, and once it's pretty dead on and the VE map tuned, you can simply change the targets to see the AFRs you always want to run.
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Old 04-10-2013, 10:30 AM   #13
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Where the hell is the build thread on this scooter?!!?
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Old 04-10-2013, 10:48 AM   #14
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haha what he said: this thing is suhweet
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Old 04-10-2013, 11:47 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TurboTim View Post
Where the hell is the build thread on this scooter?!!?
Tim I have a gazillion pics.
I promise I will start a build thread as soon as I sort these problems out.

And, you know, Reverant lives practically next door to me. If he was having a problem, I would be knocking on his door the next morning to offer help.
I am truly offended he has not shown up yet. Geez.
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Old 04-10-2013, 11:54 AM   #16
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Yeah, for sure.

Geez


Quote:
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You need a wideband.
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Old 04-10-2013, 04:37 PM   #17
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You can tune with a NB... I did it with MLV, and got the car fairly close (confirmed after installing a wideband). It just won't be perfect (in my case, it was a little richer than necessary). It also takes a loooong time.
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Old 04-10-2013, 04:42 PM   #18
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If you tune the method I said, using incorporate AFR, it should be easy. Once you get the VE table tuned to 14.7 AFR based off the NB, you can simply change the AFR targets and you'll hit those numbers.

I see no reason to involve MLV, unless you're too cheap to pay for TS License.
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Old 04-10-2013, 04:52 PM   #19
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Yeah, I'm not suggesting that he use MLV. I'm just discounting the theories that it's not possible to tune with a NB.
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Old 04-10-2013, 05:32 PM   #20
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It's not, you yourself said you were off. Big difference between 11:1 and 14.6:1. NB doesn't know this difference.
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