Changing things over for RC 550's and E85, help with changes please - Miata Turbo Forum - Boost cars, acquire cats.

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Old 01-17-2011, 08:28 PM   #1
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Default Changing things over for RC 550's and E85, help with changes please

Alright I want to change the injectors out this week and load the car up on E85 as an NA until I finish the Turbo kit. This way I should be used to E85 and how I need to tune for it.

Here are some questions a few are rather easy but I wanted to ask anyway to ensure I get things right.

1) I have the harnesses for the RC 550 Injectors. I am curious as to if there is any thing I should be worried about with the wiring. I don't see this as a major issue but sometimes its better to double check.

2) What are the stock miata injectors, High Impedance right? So I should not need to adjust as I believe the RC's are as well or do I have that backwards and I will need to adjust something? (If so what do I need to change as I am a little fuzzy on this thanks)

3) E85 has a different stoich mixture which I believe is 9.87 So I just adjust my AFR table.
With E85 though does anyone adjust their widebands to take better advantage of the levels so you can tune more accurately? (Considering it would not need to go much beyond 18.0 AFR I would think)
--On that note what do some of your guy's settings look like on e85?

4) I have read a lot of comments that say adding 3* of timing across the board is normal for E85, but I am a little hesitant without some further input from Miata/BP owners on this.


5) Odd ball question, not really on topic but while reading the Megasquirt Flex Fuel section it said the max power lean on gas was at 13.2... most of us run beyond that so I was curious as to others who run NA how things look on your maps.


Thanks guys!


---FYI---
This is a 2000 NB Miata with Megasquirt 2 PNP.
When I say NA I mean Naturally Aspirated not the NA Body Designation.
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Old 01-17-2011, 10:48 PM   #2
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If I understand correctly you still tune on your AFR gauge as if using gasoline. The sensor reads lamda which does not rely on a type of fuel. The AFR reading is just there to relate a lamda number into an AFR reading for gasoline.

So just tune as if on gas. You will notice that the delivered fuel is much more, but the AFR readings will be the same.

Now if the "power" lamda number for E85 is different than regular gas, then yes the AFR number will also need to be different.
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Old 01-17-2011, 11:30 PM   #3
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Read the A/F gauge as if it were gasoline as suggested above. On E85 in my previous car I shot for 11.8:1 as that's what my car liked. Some friends of mine went a little leaner to about 12.5:1. The reference to "max power lean" in your post OP...does it really say gas at 13.2:1 on the AEM site? That's leaner than anyone I know on E85, let alone gasoline.

I ran 5-6* more timing up top on E85 as compared to 91oct (16* vs 21-22*), and that was more conservative than some others on it around here. Starting with +3* sounds good, but I bet you'll end up with more.

Just don't rely on knock to help you tune. My car didn't knock at 16:1 (accidental lean condition one time). You really need to pay attention to airflow and where it peaks if you are street tuning or the obvious numbers on a dyno to get the most out of it.

FYI 550cc injectors were only good for about 225hp in my 2.0L car at max duty cycle on E85.
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Old 01-17-2011, 11:48 PM   #4
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I think that 13.2 for max lean power is for naturally aspirated on gasoline. It is probably pretty true. Just not extra safe. It's on "kill" at that point.
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Old 01-18-2011, 01:01 AM   #5
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good luck with those 550's.
That's nothing for e85.
you'll max em out on your 1st tuning session over 12psi.
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Old 01-18-2011, 01:33 AM   #6
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18psi--
Boost will come later, I just had these sitting around so why not use them until I nail down just what kit I will go with and if I am going to be paranoid and build a bottom end first.

rweatherford--
Thank you very much for the info, I really appreciate all involvement.

On the LC1 it has a setting for e85 when your setting it up (also for other fuel types) and it lists the 9.87 I believe as the stoich mixture for it.
I will be tuning the maps much the same just running E85 and I will save a set of AFR, Spark and VE tables to go back and forth when I need too. I just thought I would need to resetup the AFR table and then I would modify the Spark table although I was unsure if I should add 3* across the whole board or not as some recommend.

matthewdesigns--
Thanks for the help, again very appreciated.

I know the 550's will run out, as I mentioned I just happen to have them laying around might as well play with them for now.

However I would like to pick your brain further.
You have backed up the mention of leaving the LC1 on the Gas setting for now, for now I will do so.

However the numbers you mentioned were:
11.8 on E85 and others going further. Since the recommended is 9.87 thats about a 2 point jump. And the added timing.

Guess I just want to double check on that and ask what you were running, compression ratio etc and how that concerns you comparing it to the BP 1.8 and running NA as opposed to FI since you have some experience running it.
I like getting the views of those who have run it before so anything you can add will just be added to the information I have collected.

I have heard about not using knock quite a few times, seems esp on boost E85 is one that just keeps getting better and better until it goes boom. I was going to be careful and I was quite worried about getting the timing right so I will probably start with the 3* after some further feedback and go from there.

I am thinking I might start the switch over tomorrow and see what happens.



However on a whole I am still not 100% sure I know how to set it up for the 550's and if I need to change anything else to be ready for them.
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Old 01-18-2011, 01:43 AM   #7
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forget the whole 9.87. completely.

Just tune for 11.8 like its gasoline. I have an aem uego and literally did nothing to it when switching to e85. wbo2 reads lambada and does the conversion for you (on most if not all widebands). Tune it as if its gas, except if you want you can run it a little leaner (as previously mentioned) without any danger.
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Old 01-18-2011, 01:56 AM   #8
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Excellent I will do that then.
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Old 01-18-2011, 02:31 AM   #9
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If you have a map tuned for 93 oct then add 7 across your fuel map. That what we have found to work best at THE SHOP CT.
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Old 01-18-2011, 02:50 AM   #10
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FYI, RC550s are not approved for E85 use unless you pickle the system after every use with gasoline.
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Old 01-18-2011, 02:21 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Savington View Post
FYI, RC550s are not approved for E85 use unless you pickle the system after every use with gasoline.
I have found no mention of this on their site I am now searching google to confirm.
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Old 01-18-2011, 02:35 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cross View Post
I have found no mention of this on their site I am now searching google to confirm.
A quick phone call to RC will confirm it - that's where I got the information.
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Old 01-18-2011, 03:24 PM   #13
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Thanks for the clarification rweatherford...didn't consider NA numbers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cross View Post
matthewdesigns--
Thanks for the help, again very appreciated.

I know the 550's will run out, as I mentioned I just happen to have them laying around might as well play with them for now.

However I would like to pick your brain further.
You have backed up the mention of leaving the LC1 on the Gas setting for now, for now I will do so.

However the numbers you mentioned were:
11.8 on E85 and others going further. Since the recommended is 9.87 thats about a 2 point jump. And the added timing.

Guess I just want to double check on that and ask what you were running, compression ratio etc and how that concerns you comparing it to the BP 1.8 and running NA as opposed to FI since you have some experience running it.
I like getting the views of those who have run it before so anything you can add will just be added to the information I have collected.

I have heard about not using knock quite a few times, seems esp on boost E85 is one that just keeps getting better and better until it goes boom. I was going to be careful and I was quite worried about getting the timing right so I will probably start with the 3* after some further feedback and go from there.

I am thinking I might start the switch over tomorrow and see what happens.

However on a whole I am still not 100% sure I know how to set it up for the 550's and if I need to change anything else to be ready for them.
With respect to AFR's...exactly what 18psi said. This is one of the biggest sources of confusion when switching over to E85.

I had my Talon set up for E85: 2.0L, 8.5:1 compression, custom mapped chip in stock ECU.

I was first using a Mitsu EvoIII big 16g at about 32psi tapering to 27psi (read: lots of heat, way out of the efficiency range) and the fuel sucked up all the extra heat without knocking. I could only get to about 24psi on 91pct before knocking. Next was a PTE 5027e at about 26psi, less heat and more airflow so it worked great with E85.

Stock timing map on a 2g DSM peaks at 16*, but my E85 map topped out at 20* at first, then it was bumped to 21-22* (an odd fluctuation I never figured out).

Baseline fuel addition was +30% across the map, and I ended up tweaking that a little with an SAFC based on how I was driving, but typically no more than +5% on the top end at WOT. I used a single intank Walbro 255HP, stock lines/filter/rail, FIC950's, Aeromotive AFPR.

The only person I know of locally who went from pumpgas to E85 in a NA car did so in a C6 Z06. It's a 10sec all motor car and he only gained 5whp IIRC on E85 vs race gas, but it did no harm to swap over. It's definitely a fuel best suited for FI applications when higher HP/TQ is the goal...not gonna get much out of it NA.
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Old 01-18-2011, 04:06 PM   #14
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I just wanted to get used tuning for e85 before I went FI, same reason Megasquirt went on first.
With the right ground work laid it should be much easier to get going and hopefully the logic will carry over that it will be much easier to tune for.
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Old 01-24-2011, 12:46 PM   #15
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Alright I did not get to jump on this this weekend due to working on the other two projects and getting one of those ready for E85 too.

I want to get it done this morning esp when I was almost out of gas the perfect time to get it done, I went to add another gallon and its at 3.15 a gallon while e85 is 2.45 a gallon... yeah time to get this done.

So I am going to make the changes at first just to my AFR map making the leanest point at this time read the recommended here and adjust the whole map by the same amount and hopefully that should be a good afr starting point (I will post it here shortly).

Timing I am hesitant on changing the timing map just yet but I will. However I do need to go ahead and change the req. fuel almost forgot.

Hopefully all goes well!
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Old 01-24-2011, 03:11 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Savington View Post
A quick phone call to RC will confirm it - that's where I got the information.
Cross, did you do this? Disaster could be pending.
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Old 01-24-2011, 04:36 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Faeflora View Post
Cross, did you do this? Disaster could be pending.
Yes I spoke with Wayne I believe and he said it would be no different than most any other injector and they had not heard of any problems running e85 and many customers run straight Alcohol through there injectors without major issues.

So we should be safe!

Now I just have to get the harness wired in right and were golden.
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Old 01-24-2011, 04:58 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cross View Post
Yes I spoke with Wayne I believe and he said it would be no different than most any other injector and they had not heard of any problems running e85 and many customers run straight Alcohol through there injectors without major issues.

So we should be safe!

Now I just have to get the harness wired in right and were golden.
Wuggadafuck savington?
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Old 01-24-2011, 04:59 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Faeflora View Post
Wuggadafuck savington?
....????

Oh I get it lol, I was confused as **** there for a second.
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Old 01-24-2011, 06:31 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Faeflora View Post
Wuggadafuck savington?
Cross must have spoken with a different tech than Savington, or RC has changed their opinion about using their injectors with E85 because I remember specifically that this is one of the many reasons we went with Injector Dynamics injectors over RC injectors. Not to mention the ID1000s idle better than the RC550s he had previously. ID injectors also handle higher fuel pressure than the RC injectors, at least according to the two companies when we were selecting an injector for Savington's race car.
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