Critique my Spark Advance Map
 

MSM stock turbo
2.5" exhaust,
FMIC
FM Intake and TB
MS3
RX8 420cc
93 Octane

Running 14 PSI

should be at limit or close to it
of the rods and turbo

So det cans are the next step then.

Would it possible to see your timing map on E85? I would just like to compare the two.

in boost it's similar to yours, maybe 1 degree less in midrange. I also only ran 10.5-11psi because I'm conservative and that turbo won't last long at 14

Whoa, even though you're running e85? That makes me want to dial my timing back now.

Well my map is very conservative for e85, I bet I can bump the whole top half by 5* and not see knock. But knock was not my concern with e85.
The reason I didn't run more is again because of the rods. IIRC I was running 13.5* midrange tapering to 16-18 up top, and put down 209wtq on a low reading mustang dyno at 11psi

Greddygallant ran same boost as you and even less timing and his rods were bent when they took that engine apart. Also his turbo died a while ago.

So pull out another degree of timing in the middle, so your recommendation is pulling out another degree from 4-6000 RPM's, above the 100 KPa mark?

Critique my Spark Advance Map
 

The more timing you run, the higher your cylinder pressure, even if it's not knocking. That's just how combustion works. So whatever is the weak point will break.

<p>I'm going to throw this out there. My motor has all the symptoms of bent rods, and I will be confirming/disproving that this weekend. But, here is my spark map. I was holding 12psi, spiking to 14/15 on spool.</p><p>EDIT: T25</p><p>EDITEDIT: 93 Octane</p><p><img src="http://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.miataturbo.net-vbulletin/1043x733/80-ssznzg3_b0f04f307fc56d8f9fc8eca052a5cfe4a2a19862.p ng" title="" /><br /><br />&nbsp;</p>

Lol and what are these symptoms

i ran more than that for years

and a local buddy made 350whp on stock block for a while too.
exception, not rule

<p></p><p>Lower compression (by 30-40psi) on three cylinders than 2 days prior, and no compression on 1.</p>

I dialed it back some, wait to get on the dyno and really check for detonation. I made some detcans, but for some reason I don't trust it. I'll probably use my detcans and what they have there on the dyno to just see if they both sound the same.

<p></p><p>You'll bend rods without det.</p>

he's retarded it 10° over stock just as he enters boost.

my setup was never the exception--mine was as plain-jane and repeatable as it comes. Also, every MS I've built (hundreds) pretty much runs my spark map as sent.

ok
this looks normal then

https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1437255923

Dude are you really going to go down this path with me?

let's just say that 16° at 15psi is a good safe limit (which I think it is). You think that retarding so heavily the minute you start getting into positive pressure is something ideal? there's no reason to retard you spark that much at 90° unless the goal is reducing torque and hindering performance--especially given how slow the MSM turbo spools.

Even the MSM basemap for the MSPNP-Pro is much more advanced than that... and I'm pretty sure the last thing DIY wants is a customerbase like FFS with blown motors (plus they do testing on their in-house dyno). you think I want to deal with that either?

Plus if you're at the limit to bending rods based on a spark table alone, I'd urge you to reduce the boost not just a few degrees of spark.


open a spool log in MLV. Open your MSQ in the tuning panel. watch the plot as your travel through the spark map. that map is heavily retarded as the turbo is trying to spool, and then fairly retarded through the entire time in boost.

even outside of boost, look how retarded it is even at 4K and cruise...WAY less oem. I would cruise at a timing mark where his highest value that he'll never ever hit is set.

I didn't even look at the rest of this spark map, I was just commenting on the high load area. 14psi and 14-15* will bend rods, even on the baby hairdrier of the msm. I only say that because I've seen it, both here and on M-S.

PS: both DIY's and your basemaps ping on CA 91oct. past 12psi too. I think I even have logs of this, it was so evident I actually heard it inside the car.

Critique my Spark Advance Map
 

That's sad.

Yes, it is. You guys have no idea how bad the gas is. Luckily we have e85 here.

OP is in Texas though, so I really don't think he will have the same problem.
but he will, imo, be at the limit of the rods. remember the msm is 9.5:1

Critique my Spark Advance Map
 

We are all at the limits of the rods, that's not nessecarily a spark concern. Yes, knock is bad, but so is too much torque/pressure.

That map is retarded throughout; don't focus on just the peak numbers, that's all my point was.

yep the rest of it is retarded
the bottom row could be 40*
the 100kpa row could be 27*
everything in between could be in the upper to mid 30's
the 1900rpm-2700rpm columns could easily see like 5* more
that's just for starters

Thanks guys for helping me clear that up. I've been looking at others spark map and I thought that it would be decent.

Less fail?


https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1437328021

Edit:

Looking at this, it seems like I could really run more timing in the midrange. So as 18PSI said, 100 KPA row should be closer to 25 in the midrange and slowly taper off. I'm just really worried about doing timing, since I know if you're not careful, it'll pop. Which is why I'm glad everyone posted to let me know what they normally see with other miatas. I really apprecite it.

The lower end, though (non boost area), can I just look at my engine load, and shoot for whatever timing gives me the most vacuum, of course this is only while cruising.

Critique my Spark Advance Map
 

Look how much you retard between 80 and 100kpa, you're not even in boost yet.

1 degree per psi is still relatively conservative. I think you're killing mid-range with that map. I didn't really start retarding until I was in boost, you're map still doesn't look quite to what the oem would at 3k at 100kpa.

I'd probably reascale your map to make the 5200rpm column 3k. That's how retarded I think the map is.

I don't want you to blow motor, I want you to blow your mind with fun.

I really appreciate it. Tuning is vastly new to me. I know I went backwards (as most people say go MS, and tune it before you go boosted to get the hang of it). I'm just really worried and don't want to blow my car up.

So here's my question, what makes a good spark map? I know that both you and 18PSI both have tuned many a miata, is this just from tuning the same engine over and over that you guys are able to just get a good grasp at it?

I know the ideal way is to do it on a dyno, and if not with det cans, but it is very difficult (for my skill level anyways) to drive with detcans on (especially when I'm worried they aren't accurate) and tune all at the same time.

I am currently saving up to rent a load bearing dyno for a day, but the dyno's in my area are not load bearing.

Thanks a lot for all the help, I really appreciate it. What I ended up doing was scraping my entire map and going back to the one that Rev built, then taking what areas I had advanced and swapped it over. So hopefully this one will be much better.


https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1437343737

ill upload the spark maps i use in a bit. that will give you a good idea of what to try with your own car.

Subbed

This is pretty much what I load in most units I build:
https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1437351928
https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...1&d=1437351164

notice how I don't start to retard very much as you build boost. The value at 2700RPM is the same all the way up to about 5psi. It's cause of the way you build boost and travel through the map. That should give you more grunt. I'd tested mass retard in that area, and it showed up negatively on dyno maps.

You can see I'm at about the same value at 215kPa as your map, but at peak torque (typically 3500-4500RPM) I have it most retarded and start adding in a little bit at redline.

This map isnt necessarily conservative, but it's been pretty safe so far, I've been using a map similar to this since like 2007, and no one I've built anything for has ever complained about knock to me, and I've tested this map on various setups on the dyno with det cans and I havent heard knock.

My NB2 map is pretty much stolen from Hydra as FM did a lot of testing of it and I haven't had much hands on with any. Same idea though, not a lot of retard as the turbo spools, then builds spark back up after peak torque. This map in boost is a bit more conservative in the mid range due to the extra CR. It's a bit more advanced in cruise, probably helps MPGs a bit.

https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1437351928
https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...1&d=1437351802

This at least gives you and idea of what others are running. They are other theories of tuning spark out there. but most maps I see all end up looking like the above here. DIY/Hydra/AEM basemaps are always a good start, then doing your own testing to see what works best for you.


here's a random log from someone doing a pull to show how this turbo goes through the map:

https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...523d7ed76c.jpg

Brain,

Thanks so much! Looking at the two timing maps I can see I'm almost ten degrees too retarded in the mid range, and a little low as boost is coming on. I pulled a little timing on the top, and added a bunch more to the midrange. How does this look? It's starting to all make sense though. My biggest fear was running too much timing, and come to find out I'm running too little.
https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1437365773

Hey all. It's been a long while since I updated this thread. This is the ignition table I have been using. I noticed that I run a bit more timing than everyone else, but everything seems to be good, and I haven't gotten any knock. Car feels okay, just not as fast as I would like, but I think that's attributed to the stock MSM turbo.

Currently I am running 12 psi through the MSM turbo, with an AFR of 12 in wot (13's in about 1-2 psi, and slowly tapers to 12). I cruise at about 15.2 in the lower RPM's, and about 16's at 3-4K. Unfortunately, I don't have a way of checking my EGT's, but my wife drives the miata much more than I do now, in her 6 mile commute.

What do you guys think? I've added a lot of timing from before, and it feels much better at the top now, but still a bit weak. I also noticed I'm running a bit more timing than everyone else, but the car seems to really, really love it, but this is as far as I think I'll take it.


https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1452881953

I know this is very old but op if you are still around how long did you run that last map you posted? Thats a lot of timing.