Dyno Tuning, Take a Look FM we want your timingz
 

I learned a lot today.
First... the Voodoo box needs a revisit. Just like almost every other person I've heard using one has the RAMP and MAXFuel pots maxed out just to run wastegate pressure... and we were just barely making good AF's. It needs a bit more capability or the recommendation of using slightly larger injectors. Some NB injectors might be just what the doctor ordered for an NA Voodoo... or some 305's even better. People don't have problems idling 305's with an AFPR, so I don't see any reason it couldn't be done w/Voodoo. I need somebody Voodoo smart to chime in on how it would react to 50cc larger injectors.

Second... tuning with the MS is a piece of cake.
Datalog the runs.
Use Megalogviewer to replay.
Compare it to the dyno's sensors.
Do what Kienan (dyno operator) tells you.

Most of my changes in the fuel table were simply smoothing... and pulling fuel on the top-end. The MAP I have been using is Brains old T3s60 table... so I think he was running a little more fuel for the higher flow of the T3 compared to my T25.

Third... the SR20det T25 is pretty well done at 200whp on a 1.6. Kienan said he has a lot of experience with SR motors. He said with all the bolt-ons, 3"exhaust, full ECU, etc... they run out at 16psi and 240-250whp. He said me being down .4litres and 2psi, and our shit-flowing head... 200whp was pretty good. I'm also running 2.25" Borla's which might soaking up 5-10whp.

So, all in all a good day. I was glad I brought a spare filter. When I was running the MAF, the big filter wouldn't fit... you can see how deformed the small filter is (collapsed from being overflowed for a year). So I threw the new filter on. You can also see my old MBC installed, sitting there waiting (SEND ME IN COACH!!!) in case the EBC couldn't be tamed.

Take a look at my fuel logs from table to table. You'll notice the final log is a lot smoother even though I may have pulled fuel up to the 5th run, and then added back in some cells by the end. First and 5th logs are 8psi... last is 14psi.
Color codes so you can see how much I did in each cell:
Yellow= -1
Red= -2
Blue= +1
Green= +2
Black= I have no idea how a 56 ended up there... became 71.

If there is more than one circle, then just ad... a red and yellow together is -3.

Take a look at my timing table. This is the table in the MSQ I got from Scott originally. I've never touched it. I believe it's fairly tame... Shawn looked at it and said I had a lot of room to go. I've never heard even the slightest hint of knock out of the current setup and I'd like to keep it that way. Whaddya think overall of this table. Can I get away with more aggressive timing anywhere and still keep it really safe.

Here's the printout of the first run at about 9psi compared to the 8th run at 14psi. Both runs, the boost spikes almost 1psi higher at some point, but then settles out. On the 5th run, I made a tick over 170whp... and on my 7th run it made 203whp... so splitting hairs:

9psi= 170whp/160wtq
14psi= 200whp/185wtq

You can see the difference in fuel between the runs... sliding plenty rich up high on the blue line... and 8pulls later, almost flat from 4500-6500.

On another note, I finally got the EBC nailed down pretty good. I can still play with it a little more between 3800 and 4500, but not this week.

For some reason, I just couldn't get rid of the HICCUPS between 3500-4500. The fuel table is pretty smooth, but the AF jumps, the BOOST jumps, the timing gets squiggly... any suggestions?

related? what is your boost cut at? did you log with MS during the pulls?

as long as you iats are tame you could probably add a bunch of timing up top

I logged every pull. Boost cut set to 16psi, not an issue.

I just looked through all my logs... the 2nd 14psi run was probably the hottest and most heat soaked. I saw 105* at 6500rpm. All other runs are nearly the same, with IAT starting at ambient and ramping up to 90*f at 9psi and 100-105*f at 14psi. It was about 65* in the shop.

that's not bad at all, first thing i'd try is take your 183kpa value and copy them into teh 212kpa row. with my greddy my lowest value in my 212kpa row is 15 and goes to 21 at 7000rpm, this is also a rough tune and i think i could go a little more. also look some of my logs and i've gotten my iat up to 113 after an hour of beating the shit out of the car with this map and no problems. this could also explain why 5psi only gained you 30whp

I'm following... I'm gonna search and see if I can find some other Spark MAPs that have been posted to see where I stand across the average. I'm gonna spend a week or so at the current settings and get used to it. Then I'll play with the spark a little and see what the butt-dyno says.

Keep the info coming if you've got it.

Here is a spark map that a about 5 people I know including myself run. One is even on a certain 99 motor @ ~14psi , 271hp-235ft/lbs
http://i26.tinypic.com/2j45am8.jpg

What turbo is that '99 running?

If I'm not mistaken, that is Paul's turbo.

that would be my spark table.

Ah, pussy crap then.

WOW! That table is between 5-6* higher on average than mine... and in some cases, 10* or more (but I'll never be in those cells)... should make a noticeable difference. I may have to find another local Dyno-day and see just how much difference it makes.

I made the spark table with help from Turbo Tim. kinda copied his spark table up top but left my DIY PNP rows down in vacuum

Good improvement Sam!

How long did the dyno session take, and was your tuner megasquirt savvy?

What's up with not just posting a VEX? Who wants to type all that in? Mien got!

Weirdos.

I need to revisit that, I pulled piles of timing out, and couldn't keep boost under control. Took out some fuel and added timing and it got better, but I have a feeling there's room to go, even WITH California CrappyFuel (tm)

I just stoled this timing table, punched it in my map and holyyyy shit, it feels a lot faster and its not knocking at all. Much smother too.

Fucking bullshit CA 91.

I know. Even worse than is being shitty is that it's non-standard. So I can't just take everyone else's maps. I take them and pull out, oh... some, timing from each. But how do I know how much?

Wait a sec, doesn't that Certain Someone have an 8500 rpm redline? What does he do then, just live with the 7000 values up through the higher numbers? Seems odd...

Well I just did the same thing and there is a definite bump in power according to the butt dyno for sure. No pinging at 7.5 psi on 93 octane Valero. Very nice map ,thanks for posting it :bigtu:

my timing map is posted in my dyno thread... it's considerably more nasty that yours sam... you should be able to bump all of your boost values by 4-5* i think.

I'm gonna try pauls table tomorrow, pretty excited about that.

Thought I already asked this, but seems not.
Are there only 12 columns in the ms settings? This seems odd as even a Link has 16?

You say "even" a Link. The Link is a great ECU, but it's just getting a little long in the tooth, and it's only available from FM for the 94-97 cars. If you've got a newer car, it's Hydra if you're buying from them, or maybe Voodoo.

I'll break it down for ya:
Link 16x16 $1700
Hydra Nemesis 32x32 $2000
Megasquirt 12x12 $300

Hmmm.... 12x12 doesn't seem so bad anymore. And to be perfectly honest, with the 3d mapping, it's fairly easy to get a good tune with "only" 12x12 due to the simplicity of our engine and relatively low redline of 7200rpm. The idea is a perfectly flat fuel curve... and the a 12x12 table on the Miata is perfectly capable... same for the spark table.

link is like 5x16 or something......

I've owned 2 links so I pretty much know how it works. My next one is going to be a MS, so I'm not bashing it. I just never knew there were only 12 columns. I simply find it surprising that the ms guys didn't use more columns. Would it really have been that difficult to write code for a couple more columns? Probably, otherwise they would have done it obviously. Still, I find it strange. My redline was 7800 btw, so I did really use all 16 of them ;).

you dont need 16 columns. the MS reads 5 cells at a time, plenty of res.

What are you spark settings to use that table?
something like this.?

The spark settings in that table macanha have nothing to do with your ability to run that table. If you have a similar compression ratio engine and similar fuel then you should be able to run that spark table. Use it cautiously.

how would this apply to someone with a Hydra? From what I have read here, the FM timing table is pretty tame. I should be able to adjust it a bit more. Perhaps I can just use this table and interpolate the numbers between for my use.

I also typed this table up by hand and started running it tonight. The car screams like a bat out of hell with the new table, what a difference. I can't wait to actually get it on a dyno now for some timing tuning. It pulls like a mf'n freight train and i'm not running that much boost, nor is my turbo very big :) Plus my stock suspension squats like woah when going WOT.

Sam your timming drops off the map pretty sudenly add abit more timming on boost transition and smooth out your map as much as possible. Those big ole timming jumps are what you are feeling on your but dyno.

hey andrew, whats your spark table looking like? im curious as i just modeled off teh DIY maps, but i was curious about adding a little more timing on the lower end as the car feels somewhat sluggish at the low end.

I did an experiment today with Pauls map (posted on previous page) and compared it to mine that i'm using in the hydra.

You can see the difference pretty clearly. He runs more timing at high rpm but significantly less off boost. I was somewhat knock limited in boost above 6500 so I pulled some out. But I dont have ANY knock anywhere with the current map. East coast 93 gas.

Sumbitch... well, looks like Icantdo55 and I need to call Kienan back and tell him we need to come down and do 3pulls each again. I want to do a pull with the current spark table now that I've got my COPs in to see if there's any difference. And I'll do a couple pulls with Pauls/MikeRiv/5otherguys/andEverybodyElseButMe's spark table and see what I get.

Sam, you want my map numbers? should improve drivability and give you better power delivery in the midrange.

sam i modded my map based on pauls....

http://www.boostedmiata.com/timing/majortiming.jpg

the main difference really just being more timing in the transition between boost and vacuum and more advanced in low boost.

This still lands me at 14-15° timing at 12-15psi, where i was previously. what you really need to do is find a shop that has a loaded dyno and has experience tuning spark.

as requested by tom:

http://www.y8spec.com/nemesis/y8sspark.gif

Sorry the axes are different than you guys use but I'll let someone else fix that when they port it over.

since im bored...im goign to throw that into a MSQ table...

here:

http://www.boostedmiata.com/timing/y8s_hyrda_01.jpg

you can see how he adds a lot more timing back in, I think we can get away with it too...when i look at an old map, when i first dynoed with MS i was hitting 20° at 12psi. We all jsut need to stop being cheap assholes and tune that shit yo.

i should finally be getting my car out of storage in the next few weeks, so i'll be able to report on some of these mods with a '93 greddy turbo'd whip... :-)

it looks so pretty in rainbow. I should note that there's a few things going on in my map.

1. high boost, low RPM: who cares
2. low boost, high RPM: cruise. advanced a lot. basically lean your maps out to 15 or 16:1 and then use timing to get you the EGT you want.
3. < 20 kPa: compression braking.
4. < 1000 rpm: idle / off-idle.

Scott I'd actually change that 1000 column to 1300 or something so your idle isn't crossing a boundary into high advance. Or maybe even ditch the 500 column, make it 1300, and put a 1800 ish column between 1300 and 2300 and run about 2 degrees less than the pink cells there.

similar for the vac rows (0-34 kpa). it's a lot of resolution for idle and overrun. maybe go 0, 30, 55, etc. if you look at my map, it has basically 5 points (4 zones) across the load range. mostly the space between is linearly interpolated. idle, off-boost, transition, boost.

Sam, if this can be done with out pinging I bet there is alot more power still in the car.

Wow what a difference from my map and yours!

Yours on top.

you have the file for that? after i get my fuel map real good i want to try this map on my stock motor. How much tuning is needed on the fuel map after you do a change to spark?

I looked at Y8s's timing and then the DIY PNP default timing map. I thought there is no reason to be MORE conservative than DIY on timing so I came up with a hybrid spark map between the 2. might load it in my car today and give it a whirl.

Y8S
http://www.miatamx5.com/ms_files/spa...y8s_timing.jpg

DIY
http://www.miatamx5.com/ms_files/spa...diy_timing.jpg

Hybrid
http://www.miatamx5.com/ms_files/spa...rid_timing.jpg

if anyone wants those vex files they are stored in the same directory as those images

would these more aggressive maps work fine on a N/A engine with the MSPnP?

why give up all the resolution? i use this on my NA 94 with HiRes MSPNP

http://www.miatamx5.com/ms_files/spa...park_table.gif

.vex file is there if you want it

yeah, that makes sense. I'll try that out when the MS gets here and before the turbo goes on.

Got a question about the hybrid map. There is a dip in the advance in the 3400-5200 rpm columns, with most of it in the 4600 column and 4000 column. I am assuming this is because it is the peak torque region of the motor and hence higher cylinder pressures require some timing reduction.

I cruise at 3500-4000 in 5th on the highway, sometimes more ;). So, in the lower vacuum regions of the map, say up to 55 or 75 kpa, would it be a good idea to add back some advance in order to provide better cruise efficiency? Or would it be too much timing still? Not talking about knock limits for cruise, just best efficiency.

Thanks

Getting ants in pants here. Anyone have any suggestion on what timing I could run on CA gas? I want to take one of these tables, subtract out X degrees across the board and go try it.

And when do I get worried about EGT? My gauge was not pegged racing this turbo'ed mustang the other day on the freeway, but was close.

Another "noobe" tuning question...what relationship does the timing table have to the VE table? If I just plug in one of the above tables, is it going to play havoc with my AF?

not really....

http://www.boostedmiata.com/timing/timingdyno.jpg


this was literally spark only changes....i went from, IIRC, 10° to 19° and made about 20rwhp.

There isn't much relationship between the two. However, downloading an aggressive timing map for someone else's car and blindly plugging it into your ECU can be a little dangerous. A map that's the perfect level of aggression for a different engine may be too advanced for another.

^I've gotta agree.
But I'll caveat with saying that a bone stock 1.6 or 1.8 BP engine is so simple a device that you're gonna be damn close on with the majority of setups we run around here.

I wouldn't take the fuel table for a 2.0FM stroker running a T4 and drop it into my car... but it'd probably still be driveable and be moderately safe if nothing more than rich up top and a little lean at tip-in.

I think we've gotten to the point specifically with tuning MS for the Miata that some of the smarter guys could probably build you a complete MSQ from scratch just by knowing which turbo and injectors you're running and be 90% close.

I think this thread specifically has helped a lot with guy understanding the spark tables and just how much room there is to play. I personally can't wait to see what another 7*-8* of timing will buy me. I think I'm just gonna load up Paul's hybrrid table and be done with it.

I gotta agree too. I posted mine so everyone could see where there's postential room for improvement over what they have.

That said, an "aggressive map" for a 10:1 compression turbo car is probably not that aggressive:bigtu:

Sam, I very much disagree and think it's a less than good idea to assume that Paul's spark map is wise to run. At minimum, he has a different motor, manifold, turbo, and exhaust....

I actually dont agree with that. way too many variables. the MSPNP map on my stock miata needed plenty of tuning. while you may get into the ballpark, no map will be perfect on first startup.

we pretty much as all using a DIY or FM base map for spark, which is safe and conservative. This is where the power is unlocked and where you'd wanna play the most with with dyno time on a loaded dyno. It's also very dangerous to play with...so take heed and be careful, paul's map is fairly advanced compared to most, while you may get away with it, it could be a ticking time bomb. I got away with 19-20° of timing at 12psi, last time i was on the dyno I swear I was pinigng at 15° at the same boost....