I'm thinking about a VVT swap in my daily
 

I'm bored, this might be fun. My daily is terrible and probably needs an engine, I just picked up another 6-speed and I'm using my spare 3.63 in it.

My questions:
MS3x or MS1/2 w/vvt box? (I've heard the MS3vvt code isn't great)
Should I run off the 1995 harness with the CAS?
The VVT harness looks easy to build, am I missing something?
How much power are we seeing out of NA engines with VVT? Can I get 140whp on a stock engine with a 93 octane tune?
Is this a huge waste of my time?

in for answers.

Go with the MS3x. The VVT code is pretty close to done and is usable. To use VVT I believe you have to use the NB sensors. Those are easily wired into the stock CAS harness.

I don't think it is a waste of time at all. I am actually planning on doing the same thing in my daily driver. Sometime in the fall hopefully.

If you're bored, have the time/money/motivation, and your stocker is on its last legs: why not?
I'd choose the ms3 over the others, and use nb sensors over na. You aint looking to gain much n/a, but its a daily and you already knew that.

Though if it was me I'd install a cheap/simple msm mani/turbo, 5psi un-intercooled and with nb exhaust. you'd be looking at 150-160whp and much more importantly on a daily: just as much torque.

Just a thought.

Right now, I would still prefer the MS2 as it is mature, there are still issues here and there with the MS3. You can always upgrade to the MS3 later on. Btw VVTz for the win.

if ms will have 3d vvt and not 2d, 2d maps are a drop in gas mileage.

What issues are you having with the MS3?

I had been DD my boosted miata for the past 2 months with no large ms3 problems. At least nothing that would stop from hoping in the car and driving to and from work every morning. There are a few things I am still trying to get work perfectly. VSS and EBC just to name a few. Other then that it has worked well. On the other hand I am also not using AC which might change things a bit, but Brain and Y8s AC work decently enough.

I got 30mpg with my MS3x with VVT enabled driving from VA to SC. I was still running a little rich to.

I found out that if you tried to start with a battery that is not in top shape or if it is very cold and the engine doesn't crank very fast (ie cranking RPM less than 160rpm), then there was no spark. VVT would also bounce around and never reach it's target - that was with alpha6 and alpha7. I haven't fiddled with it since then though.

I also don't want to use it on my own car if it isn't open sourced. I have personal mods that I want to apply.

I get that with MSII :vash:

Can you replicate it on the stim? Because I could, but it works fin on the MS2, right down to 50rpm.

Not tried it on the Stim, but this is with 12v triggers for the coils rather than the OEM 5v.

Dunno, maybe extreme cold dropped the voltage enough for them to never trigger.

cranking issues with VVT have been resolved.

I'm making 136whp dynapak with my 99 motor, 93 octane tune, MS1. It was stock freshened, port match, no valve job just a lap. 99 IM just with the VICS stuff removed. I have no doubt I could be +5whp with a square top and a switch to sequential. More for a real valve job or minor porting. The VVT motor has to make a bit more just with the slight CR bump, and it is ostensibly quite a bit stronger on area under the curve with the VVT tuned. I'd call 140 pretty easy for the VVT motor, I've seen claims of 180whp on full build CSP motors running funny fuels, but I'd say even the 165 range is fully attainable.

Not a waste of time at all.

So is the 140whp doable? I'm going to be driving 600 miles round trip 3-times per month and I want the most reliable Miata on Earth to do it in which means I'm probably freshening up an engine for $1200 or buying a VVT engine and MS3x judging by the way this thread is going.

What are everyone's thought on attempting to run this off a CAS in regards to resolution for how VVT works with the crank position?

Might need to tweak a VR trim pot a bit on the scope.

I can sync down to the lower limit of the stim on the bench just fine. And as far as real life testing, we have a customer running 6000CID engines that crank over at 45-50 rpm off MS3X hardware. They sync immediately and fire up. We have some of their boxes running on hall input with pullup, and others working with the vr input and no internal pullup (using LS1 sensors which have a small bit of built in pullup). This is a 0 fault tolerance industrial application, and we've been running for around a year.

Thanks. I'm leaning over the cliff, looking down on my knowledge of electronics. I'm intimidated by things like building harnesses and setting up sequential injection, the VVT stuffs, and possibly converting over to Hall sensors.

My plan is get a really slick drivetrain in this miserable looking car, then when I have more cash I want to buy a nicer roller and swap the drivetrain in.

Depends on the dyno. You get the right egojet, and yeah you might.

I would plan on a little head shave to make it more realistic.

VVT control will require using the NB sensors.

What does this require in addition to running 2 wires from the crank sensor, 2 wires from the cam pulley sensor, and 3-wires to the VVT parts?

I'm really dumb to this stuff, but I can assemble Legos. There's also the thought of educating myself, however that was a somewhat miserable experince when I put MS on the green Miata the first time.

I havent done it on mine because im going to use the ECU for it, but the e-fan sensor as well (on my 1.6, not sure on 1.8)

the vvt ignition coils are different, and use your fuel system from your current engine to be return style with the batch fire (harness) and it should be pretty basic.

if you cant fit the fuel rail, this is the temporary solution i came up with that i made from the original non-return fpr surge thing...
http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i1...t/2a286a0b.jpg

I was planning on running the rail from my turbo car on the potential VVT engine.

3 wires to CKP sensor: power, ground, signal to ECU
3 wires to CMP sensor: power, ground, signal to ECU
2 wires to VVT solenoid: power, ECU switched ground

You could easily run new wiring and not touch/hack the car's original harness so it can go back to swap post engine swap.

I have a lot to learn, but Matt and Jerry's book helped me understand a lot of things and contributed to my excitement over learning something like this.

What do you guys have in regards to an assembled MS3x box that an idiot like myself can put in my car without board level modifications?

edit: After this daily driver gets the VVT engine swap, and I find a better car, it's getting cut up. This car is TERRIBLE. It's one of the most cosmetically disgusting Miatas you've ever seen...but no one wants to steal it.

You have me wanting to do the VVT swap on the yellow car more now.

An off the shelf MS3X would do it, but would need one basic mod. It's $12 if you want us to do it, or I can walk you through it if you want to do it. It's really easy.

Thanks. I'll chew on this for a few months now.

I'm in the same boat. I won't upgrade to MS3 unless I can build it from source. I don't care too much if it's Open Source with capital letters, but if I can't modify it I'm not interested.

Definitely use the stock NB sensors. You absolutely require the 2001 cam sensor as Ben mentioned. It sits on the valve cover and is responsible for providing cam timing data to the ECU.

I assume I can find the required settings for the VVT stuff in one of your threads, right? Is there an MSQ floating around that I can use to get the car started?
I'm guessing I'll need to run "NB+" settings for:

• CMP
• CKP
• spark
• IAC
• VVT

while I run NA settings for:

• Fuel pump
• AC
• alternator (not really any settings for that but I have a spare '99 bracket)

How will I make the tach work?

I'm worried that I'm over-simplifying this.

There really are no "settings" for NA alternator and fuel pump. A/C command can loop through the MS3 to allow for idle up and fan activation. A tach output pin with 0-12V square wave output is provided.

There are msq floating around that should be able to get you started. What year is your DD? I think you said 95. Is that correct?

For the Cam and Crank sensors I ran them through my stock CAS wires. There are 4 wires for the stock CAS. 12v, ground, cam, crank. You can find out which is which in one of the MS threads. Basically you hook the 2 grounds from the NB cam and crank sensors to the grounds CAS wires. Then do the same with the 12v wire, you can also attach the VVT pwoer wire to this. Then attach the cam signal wire to the correct wire on the CAS plug, them do the same with the crank.

For VVT you run a single wire back to the MS3x db37. I routed mine through one of the stock EGR wires that I was no longer using.

Spark depends on if you are running sequential spark or not. If you are you will just have to run 2 additional wires back to the ms3x harness.

Any reason why you can not just run your older throttle body on the new IM? I was planning on just reusing my 94 TB when I was going with a 99 IM.

For the alternator you probably just want to run a 94-97 alternator. That way you don't have to worry about it.

I've got maps for all of it (except alternator) smeared on the internets.

the process isn't too hard. I wrote up a VVT procedure a little while ago that seems to work ok.

Big thanks to everyone for the help and spelling this out to someone who had to take Cal1 and Cal2 three times each to pass.

I'll gather all the information and post it in here when I get ready to roll with the swap. I already picked-up another LC-1.

There was an actual bug in the MS3 code in alpha6, the ignition timers would overflow when the RPM was low enough in the Miata 99-04 wheel decoder (the timers overflowed as the time between the tach events were "unnaturally high" when the RPM was lower than ~160). James found the bug and corrected it in alpha7 IIRC.

we are on alpha11 now.

Any reason why you don't install the MS3x before the engine swap? You could theoretically get it up and running on the old stock engine. Get used to the difference, then convert to sequential fuel and spark. Then swap in the VVT motor and swap to NB sensors.

Holy shit Lars, brilliant post, thanks for the wiring tips.

I STRONGLY recommend sequential. Only requires two more wires.

Well it depends if he want full sequential and what year his DD is. On a 90-93 non-cali car he needs to run 4 wires for full sequential. Two additoinal wires for fuel and two more for spark.

The best idea is to sell your VVT stuffs to me.

this car is from 1995.

I suppose I could get it up and running on NA sensors first, then swap, but if I'm already familiar with TunerStudio is there any point in doing this?

I dont think there's much benefit if you are going to be redoing a lot of the wiring anyway.

There's a bit of a learning curve when going form MSI to MSII/MSIII, but it's really the same ol program with more windows and features... the main thing will be learning how to tune PID.

Less possible causes of failure at once. You could get the MS3x up and running on the 95 running sequential fuel and wasted spark. Then convert to sequential spark. After that then drop in the VVT motor. This way you know the ECU side works and all you have to do is hook up the NB sensors and the VVT wire. I guess I just like doing things in steps now.

Random side idea. Why not put the MS3x in the track car with the VVT head. Then put the 01+ block with the 99 head in the DD. Also swap over the mspnp to the DD. I think you might get a bigger benefit in the track car with the VVT and MS3x.

Because he has the track car dialed in to a T on the motor/tuning/reliability side and he isn't looking for more power. I think Trey is only running 10psi at the track.

Somebody please find a source for BP-Z3's. Also in for gas mileage report of a VVT/6sp/3.63 car as a hwy commuter. I'm betting its a 40mpg car.

sorry, 136whp on Dynapak is what a fresh stock 99 engine make with a good exhaust.

on Dynapak, my motor made 169whp (but 148whp on a Dynojet).
I have a freshened 99 bottom with 10:1 pistons, square top, RB header, HDM intake, junk yard head, Adaptronic and no cat.

I would switch over to VVT if all the electronics can be worked out for a electrical retard like me.

I think 150whp is easy for a vvt with a few bolt ons.

Yeah, my track car is done and needs nothing. I only run 11psi on it, and it gets the job done. If I turn it up to 16psi, it still hits that number at 3500rpm. I could probably get more output but at 242whp/235wtq, it's fast enough. I'm making 215wtq at 3500rpm at 11psi, there's no point to changing it. Now, if I had a 2871 or something bigger, that might make sense.

I think 40mpg is doable if I hit the sweet spot of that cam and lower throttle position for cruising. I'm going to attempt to do this swap in a weekend too, that should be exciting. Maybe I'll wait until it cools off and drive my track car to work for a week or two.

The car probably needs an engine and I'd like to do all of this shit at the same time. How hard is it to source the pig-tails since I'll need new connectors for the CMP, CKP, VVT, and TPS?

stock is about 120 on a dynojet.

I think I managed 104 on a dyno dynamics.

there isn't much room for improvement with intake and exhaust beyond replacing the cat and stock muffler.

maybe a tiny bit in tuning (probably more gains in mpg than hp)

150 might be a challenge.

don't we get more range of adjustment on the cam with MS3x/VVTuner and does that increase range make a difference?

Need a MS3x? I may have one for sale :)

I'm wanting to do a 99+ engine in my 94 sometime next year. My poor old stock engine is worn the eff out. Thinking about a diypnp in the stock box, STR legal, tehe. I wonder if an ms2 & vvt controller would fit in the stock ecu box....

honestly don't know the full range used by the stock ECU. need someone with a stock car and megasquirt to log that. in any case, running the maximum advance might not even make more power.

and for the posterity, stock dyno charts mentioned above.

dyno dynamics:
http://y8spec.com/dyno/y8s_dyno_stock_dd.png

dynojet:
http://y8spec.com/dyno/y8s_dyno_stock_dj.png

look at that ruler flat torque curve dawg!

Just like my HP curve.

I think Emilio dynoed 159 with a .5 higher comp, jdm cam, jdm square top, and jdm 4-2-1, and some bowl work. That same day William picked up like 8hp from a straight shot intake or what Emilio picked up with bowl work. So I think with a square top, nice header/exhaust, striaght intake, and some mad tuning 150whp is in range. Aren't those dyno dynamics the heart breakers of the dyno world? 104 sounds retarded low, thats low comp 180k 1.6 power.

Edit: found some links

http://forum.miata.net/vb/showthread...highlight=Dyno

http://forum.miata.net/vb/showthread...03#post5129803

http://forum.miata.net/vb/showthread.php?t=399857

http://forum.miata.net/vb/showpost.p...5&postcount=42

http://forum.miata.net/vb/showthread.php?t=392260

Basically Emilio and probably William are the authority on the VVT power swaps.

ok maybe with a few bolt ons, an unobtainable jdm square top manifold, and a bit of DIY grinding on the head.. :)

and yeah, I made it on the "Wall of Shame" at Vishnu.

I mean more midrange torque in the track car is always a plus, but whatever floats your boat.

For all the connectors the easiest way to get them is to buy a 01-05 wiring harness. They can be found for between $40-$100 depending on who you get it from. The biggest thing is actually finding someone with one. I think I spent a few months trying to find one. I would suggest starting to look now.

Also why not just keep the 95 throttle body? It bolts up fine and that way you can reuse the idle and TPS that you already have.

You need to source a 99/00 fuel rail that has the flange for the FPR on the front.

Also might want to look into a 99/00 IM instead of the 01+.

Wait. What happened to move for GF thread? Outcome needs to be posted

GF=VVT hwy burner for Dallas to Houston cannonball run

Savington just built/installed my 01 motor into my 90.

It's 84mm, but the CR is the same, 10:1. Head is stock, but refreshed. 12 tooth wheel, sequential, ID 1000's, and AEM. Cheap eBay header, 2.5" exhaust.

6 speed with stock 90 diff (just for now), whats that? 4.3? 4.1?

TSE's dyno was acting up a bit, and showed 200 WHP, we know that's not true. Butt dyno says 140ish. Very torquey (sp?) And VERY fun to drive.

MPG's with mixed driving, 33% street, 33% hwy, 33% WOT tearing up and down mountain roads, is 25-27mpg. I may get a tank of just hwy miles next week. I'll post up the #'s.

Even though my motor isn't stock, and not a direct apples to apples comparison. I'd say it would be totally worth it. I'm enjoying mine very much.

Partsgroup sells them for $45 and when I bought mine a couple of months ago they said they had a bunch of them.

Got mine from Panic Motorsports. Not sure how many they had, and this item is more of a PITA to find than the wiring harness because it is one of two different fuel rail styles used on 99-00s. If you deal with a parts supplier who is not a Miata specialist you need to be detailed in your request or they will probably send the wrong style.