Injector and Regulator Recommendation
 

So I'm researching the "potential" for upgrading to larger injectors at some point and wondering what you guys recommend. This car was built using a lot of Flyin' Miata's catalog, so obviously I gravetate to their site and see Duetchwerks 700CC injectors for $339 and their AEM regulator for $129. My question is what would "You" do if it were your 1.6L project "daily driver"?

Specs:
Flyin Miata Voodoo2 Turbo kit with intercooler and GT2560R turbo, Flyin' Miata Happy Meal Clutch/lightflywheel kit, Flyin' Miata downpipe and cat convert, MSPNP, Flyin' Miata fuel log, Walbro 255lph pump.

Mike

You want ev14's. DW's are ev6. ID or FIC are some of the best. You probably want to stay in the 550 range with that mspnp since it will get harder and harder to control them the bigger you go, with the terrible ms1 resolution.

Injector Dynamics. I should have bought those, not the cheap shit I did.

EV14 is the latest technology. Five-O Motorsport has them as cheap as anybody.

I would not buy from them again, I'd pay more and get ID squirters. I'm pretty pissed.

...And hey for just $150 you can get a set of 4 from Taiwan... Gotta love fleabay...

I'll keep my eyes open for a sale...
Mike

Yeah, get Chinese shit. It's not like injectors are important or anything.

Like errybody says, EV14s by either Injector Dynamics (ID) or Fuel Injector Clinic (FIC) and are reputed to be solid units. As Hustler said, the FiveOs can be hit or miss. Do a google search and you will see what I mean.

Another viable injector for the budget conscious are the Denso style 195500-4450 RX8 yellow 450cc units. They are direct plug-and-play so there are no wiring adapters. These are modern OEM units so they will be solid performers with decent spray patterns and they should last for quite a while if properly maintained. Be aware that there are really cheap Chinese knockoff 4450s on eBay, so buy from a reputable vendor. (read: forum sponsor)

I'm not the sharpest hammer in the drawer by any means, but if using properly sized injectors, do you really *need* a regulator? I thought the 90-93 were vacuum/boost referenced already?

I looked at the various large flow ev14 injectors from ID, FIC and five0.
It looks like they use low flow injectors and remove the atomizing plate at the tip of the injector to get the larger flow.
Can it be that easy.... or am I missing something?

https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...1&d=1351628824
https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...1&d=1351628824

What does that lack of an atomizing plate mean?

I guess when the atomizing plate is removed the quantity of fuel flow and spray pattern changes?

Without atomizing plate


With atomizing plate

90-93 OEM FPR is indeed vacuum/boost referenced.

Looking at OP's mod list, he's already wasted money on a fuel log and pump, so why not waste some more on a regulator? :burncash:

Woa Woa Woa... Time out there skippy, I bought the car as is. I'm trying to sort it out from here... I tend to not want to waste money, but will spend the right money on the right parts. I'm not on a terribly tight budget, but I have three car projects going on at once so I need to prioritize what I buy and why I'm buying it.

Just looking for solid advice guys...

Mike

Yea, I was kidding... I don't plan to buy crap injectors.

The only injector you should buy are ID1000's. If anyone else tells you otherwise they are wrong. I have used 5 different sets of injectors over the past 5 years and the ID1000's are by far the best ones out of them all.

Pretty sure ID and FIC ev14's are identical. Five-O are apparently the ones that bore out smaller ones to make them larger, etc.

That said I've used ID1000's and they were a pleasure to tune.

Shuiend Even if I don't plan to upgrade from the current turbo setup? What I'm considering in upgrading these parts is that I'll upgrade within the parameters of the components that are currently on the car. I'm using this car as my daily driver to keep miles of my Porsche GT3 and my Dodge Cummins 3500 diesel. So "some" fuel efficiency is important to me.

Thanks.
Mike

tickle fight!!!!!1 :pitlab:

Anything is going to be better than the stock style EV1 squirtguns you are running now. Size isn't a super-duper concern with the superior spray patters and the (compared to what you are using now) speed of light latency of the EV14s that are available these days. Better latency = better control, better atomization = higher efficiency. As long as you can control them, its win-win.

I would like to hear more about what Vlad said about the "terrible ms1 resolution" and big ass EV14s

His post doesn't contradict my post. five-o makes a 1000 too and good luck controlling those with a mspnp

when dealing with ID, its different. Its superior

Ok, so its not EV14s that are the problem, its the Five-Os that are the problem. I git it!

20 posts to confirm Five-0s are junk. Got it, check. Do I really need 1000CC injectors? Or will ID 550CC injectors be sufficient for my "approx" 300Wheel Hp Miata?

And I assume with the current setup no need for a rising rate FPR?

Mike

300 wheel will require at least ID725's. In which case you may as well go with the 1000's.

ID's like more pressure than stock. But not mandatory. Also with a regulator it will be even harder controlling large injectors at idle with bad resolution from mspnp.
See the pattern?

It pains me when I see or talk to people who are dissuaded by the Injector Dynamics' price tag. Yes, they are expensive. If there were anything out there that I thought was on par with the IDs for less money, I'd sell them too. But here's the thing: there is nothing on the market today that touches the IDs. You can waste money on shitty, no-name EV14s, or waste even more money on modified EV14s from shops like Five-O, and in the end, you'll have wasted a bunch of money on injectors that either idle like shit, don't flow evenly, or have some other fatal flaw.

With almost every injector manufacturer, you'll find a bunch of people who like them, and a bunch of people who have had a bad experience for one reason or another. Injector Dynamics is the one outlier - everyone who uses them absolutely loves them, and I don't just mean Miata tuners. There are Supra tuners, Viper tuners, Gallardo tuners, guys who spend more on ECUs than half of you guys spend on your entire build, and all of them universally adore the IDs for meeting the high-flow demands of those cars without any of the nasty drawbacks of shitty, low-buck injectors.

Here's the thing about ID injectors: There's no fatal flaw. They idle perfectly, they drive perfectly, and they are big enough to support horsepower levels you can only dream about. They are genuinely the last set of injectors you'll ever buy, so kindly stop fucking around and buy a set (preferably from me) so we can all move on with our lives. :)

Injector Dynamics ID1000s from Trackspeed Engineering

I was pursuaded by a "deal", now I have shitty injectors I wish i never bought.

What injector is in Rover?

Savington, Ping me offline with a price... Like I said before, I don't mind spending the "appropriate amount" of money. I had a 670HP Porsche Turbo. I fully understand the "big" picture. Just trying to get ground truth before I make a decision.

Mike

Here is a link to the ID1000's at TSE's site. Buy these injectors and you will never need to upgrade injectors again as long as you own the car.

+1 for ID1000's or anything Injector Dynamics. Went through rx7 550's, 2 sets of fiveo's and FINALLY upgraded to ID's and I should have just gone with ID's from the get go. Save myself a bunch of money, not to mention the headaches with the other injectors. If I ever help with upgrading someone's injectors, I will refuse to use any other injector, unless they're free... and then later make them upgrade to ID's

So what issues are people experiencing with the five-o's?

Just trying to get an idea of whether its 1 single downside or a whole list.

I have a bunch of lower flow ev14 injectors lying around.
I was curious how the flow would be effected by removal of the atomizing plate. (Easy to remove with orbital sander.)
https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...1&d=1351688831



I will get a friend to flow test it but my guess is that flow jumped significantly.

ive never even seen this "plate" on any of the ev14s I've ever used.

which ones are those and how old are they?

If I understand correctly, anything with the 0 280 158 xxx numbering (as used by FIC, ID and others) comes originally with an atomizing plate.
18 psi, I guess all the EV14's you have used have been aftermarket modified ones?

The injectors in my picture are bosch part 0 280 158 193 and were used in ford vehicles up until 2009, possibly later. I got 20 of them for 100$ on ebay when I only needed 4! On my car they flow around 400cc. I have seen some guys advertising them as 750 cc with the atomizing plate removed but who knows.

This response is very important so im going to bold it and make it big:

DO YOU WANT TO BE THE PERSON WHO TUNES 1000CC injectors on a STOCK 1.6L running MSPNP w/ BATCH INJECTION?

Sure:
https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1351702289

How does the spray of an injector vary with and without the atomizing plate?

The effect seems to be real but the results can be unpredictable according to this article

Injector Dynamics - Drillbits and Dipshits

I bet you can get them to idle decently. You might be a little rich, but I am betting you could do it.

I spoke with Five 0. They replace the atomizing caps with their own and check flow at 3 different duty rates. I still wish I had gone with ID.

why? for what reason on a block that's limited to 250tq? why have to idle rich so you can have an injector twice your limits/needs?

I'll conceed on the 725cc ID injector, albeit still a bit large. But I think you could get them to idle fine on a 1.6L with batch injection.

I'm not saying that ID injectors are bad by any stretch of the means, but suggesting that the only option is the ID1000 is silly. Do I want ID injectors? hell yeah! But I dont want 1000cc injectors, even with seq. fuel and spark. 725cc in still more than the majority of us on this site will ever need.

Because if you are buying things once then do it correctly. I at one point thought my RX7 440cc injectors would be more then I ever need. A few years later I have since upgraded multiple times with overall cost being far greater then what ID1000's cost. I guess if you are running an MS1 with batch fuel on a 1.6 then yes ID725's would work, but for the cost difference I just cannot see not getting the 1000's.

So what are the options for a <200hp motor that wants to use seq fuel with an ev14 style injector but doesn't need 750ccs of it every squirt? Get 1000s anyway (because last set you'll ever buy yada yada) and run them on 10% duty cycle all the time?

Pretty much. We are the extreme minority of the quality fuel injector market, ID doesn't care about poverty people.

running a 240rwhp miata with 1000cc injectors is not the correct way.

they might be the best injectors, but that's not correct.


running a 240rwhp miata with 550cc ID injectors WOULD be correct.


hell running a 1.6L turbo is not even correct. Mikelly, nor myself, will ever come close to maxing 1000cc injectors, let alone 725cc injectors. And if running 1000cc injectors causes bad idle problems in his case, how is that correct?

just because the solution works for you, does not make it the universal solution. I have no problems suggesting the 725cc injectors, however.

Well Mikelly was originally looking at DW700's, which will idle like complete crap on his setup. I 100% will say that ID1000's will idle 10x better then he will ever get those DW700's.

So in his case the ID725's would be the most comparable to the DW700's. The problem is that I do not think there is a price difference between the ID725's and ID1000's and if there is it is extremely minimal. So do I spend the same money on smaller injectors that will idle the same as the larger injectors?

because there may be a huge difference in how well his old MSPNP on his batch injection might be able to control/handle either injector...regardless of the trivial cost difference.

hey trey, any chance you can post a picture of one of the tips on the five 0 injectors?
I am curious how they do it as the original cap is laser welded.

Scott I appreciate your weighing in on this issue.

Guys I asked about injectors and regulators, and appreciate all the perspectives. I want to make sure the "right" parts for the right current setup will work the best. I have no problem spending $450 on injectors. I have a big problem spending that money on injectors that will make this car run more poorly.

Mike

id725

the 725s will be good. I've tuned shitty old 550s on MS1s and they could idle just fine, but those required slightly richer idle...around 13.5-14.

I guess the atomizing plate on the stock denso injectors is designed to split the flow in two and direct it towards both of the intake valves.
Modified injectors will not do this. Also my guess is that the ev14 injector atomizing effect will be superior when the Bosch atomizing plate is left intact.

https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...1&d=1351837830

For me modified injector solutions look silly. It makes more sense to get an original Bosch part that would suit the application without having to hack the most critical and precise part off. This is especially true when you look how inexpensive suitable original injectors can be got for. Ford Racing 47lb Fuel Injectors - Set of 8 - Home for your Ford Mustang
The ev14's in the link (part 0 280 158 117) are rated at 525 cc at 43.5 psi (615 cc at 60 psi) and cost 30$ each delivered. :2cents:

Injector Dynamics doesn't use the plate.
Are you saying they are inferior to your cheap bosch injectors?

I never said anything about ID being inferior to my cheap bosch injectors?

From what I can see, at least ID replaces the atomizing plate with a cap orifice which may explain if the performance of IDs is better than other butchered injectors.

What I'm saying is I would prefer an original unmodified bosch injector rather than any aftermarket modified one sold at the same flow rates.

https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...1&d=1351869714
https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...1&d=1351869714

I have ID1000 injectors, Deatschwerks DW300 pump, stock NA fuel regulator (90-97) and stock 99 fuel rail.

So, you don't need an aftermarket regulator, really. I plan on getting one anyways, but simply for E85.

Sturvo, have fun buying two dozen injectors and having them all flow-tested so you can get a set that actually flows the same at both high and low duty cycles.

Andrew, is it necessary to flow test brand new unmodified bosch ev14 injectors as you are suggesting?

yes, and that's what ID does.

https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...1&d=1351876454

Interesting. So ID flow tests the injectors before their modification?
In my experience stock unmodified injectors are sold by the piece and do not have any "Must flow test before use" requirements attached.

...which is why ID's testing and matching process produces a superior product.

This really isn't hard.

Do you really think that modified injectors perform better up to the flow rating of the stock ones they are based on?

yes.

Scott, care to elaborate?