It Lives!
01-27-2008, 01:56 PM
#1
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It Lives!
A great big thanks to all those who have helped out with advice, ideas, data, and just generally being MS pioneers. Another MS-1 (running HR10d2) lives.
Yesterday was the day. Ripped out the EMU and the factory ECU, fabricated a set of brackets out of sheet aluminum to hang the MS in the stock location under the passenger's feet, installed the new wiring and sensors, turned the key, and absolutely nothing happened. (no fuel pump, no power to MS, no power to WBO2, nothing.) You know that feeling that you get when your brain receives and process the words "I'm pregnant", it was like that. Troubleshooting determined that the main relay wasn't closing. No blown fuses... Hmm.... Turns out I knocked the connector on the keyswitch around a bit while I was up inside the dash pulling the old MAP sensor and running the new hose. Jiggled it a bit, turned the key, and after some coughing and sputtering it did in fact work.
Ok, so right now it won't cold start for ****. It catches, runs roughly for a moment, then dies. Crank it again, same. Crank it while applying throttle, it runs up to maybe 2,000RPM and then dies. After about 10 tries it finally catches and after that it runs pretty well. With my 6.1 req fuel setting, Scott's VE table is pretty close. The DIY spark table is working nicely. A side note- many of you mocked me for spending so much time bench-testing with the oscilloscope. I'll have you know that my ignition timing was dead-on-***** accurate the very first time. Didn't have to adjust a thing.
Ok, the problems. Obviously I gotta tinker with cold start somewhat.
The analog TPS w/ auto TB that a listee was kind enough to locate for me in a junkyard doesn't work. Specifically. I think the resistor element inside the TPS is shot. It's noisy as hell, and it actually dips when I depress the throttle, then starts going back up. I tested it with an ohmmeter and confirmed that it's in bad shape. So I'd appreciate any advice on how I can alter my settings (or otherwise perform hardware trickery) temporarily to take the TPS out of the equation. Basically, what are you other 1.6ers without a variable TPS doing? Ultimately I'm going to use my old TB with it's switch-type TPS housing and try to retrofit something into it. There's a certain Honda TPS that looks promising.
I took it out for a beer run this morning and it drives OK. The mixture is not perfect- in places it swings from 12:1 to 18:1, but I've got the EGO authority turned way up right now, so that may be partly to blame. I even took it up to about 3 or 4 PSI of boost, and it was wonderful.
MAT is giving believable values, CLT seems a bit off. In the attached log, the engine was at ambient temp (about 65°F) to start with, so MAT and CLT should have been the same. OTOH, CLT is giving believable values at the upper end of the scale.
I wonder if the gurus might take a look at my attached log, MSQ, and custom.ini and make suggestions concerning my cold starting problem and also how to eliminate any side-effects that my funky TPS may be causing.
Obligatory ego-enhancing build photos:
The MS, mounted to the brackets I made:
Built a new engine sub-harness to deal with all the new sensors. It goes through the firewall where one of the A/C pipes used to be.
MS in its new home:
Wired up, with KnockSenseMS also mounted. The remains of the factory harness are tucked up at the top. I couldn't bring myself to actually dike it all off.
Hmm. An EMU, an EMU wiring harness, and EMU MAP sensor... What am I to do with these things?
Yesterday was the day. Ripped out the EMU and the factory ECU, fabricated a set of brackets out of sheet aluminum to hang the MS in the stock location under the passenger's feet, installed the new wiring and sensors, turned the key, and absolutely nothing happened. (no fuel pump, no power to MS, no power to WBO2, nothing.) You know that feeling that you get when your brain receives and process the words "I'm pregnant", it was like that. Troubleshooting determined that the main relay wasn't closing. No blown fuses... Hmm.... Turns out I knocked the connector on the keyswitch around a bit while I was up inside the dash pulling the old MAP sensor and running the new hose. Jiggled it a bit, turned the key, and after some coughing and sputtering it did in fact work.
Ok, so right now it won't cold start for ****. It catches, runs roughly for a moment, then dies. Crank it again, same. Crank it while applying throttle, it runs up to maybe 2,000RPM and then dies. After about 10 tries it finally catches and after that it runs pretty well. With my 6.1 req fuel setting, Scott's VE table is pretty close. The DIY spark table is working nicely. A side note- many of you mocked me for spending so much time bench-testing with the oscilloscope. I'll have you know that my ignition timing was dead-on-***** accurate the very first time. Didn't have to adjust a thing.
Ok, the problems. Obviously I gotta tinker with cold start somewhat.
The analog TPS w/ auto TB that a listee was kind enough to locate for me in a junkyard doesn't work. Specifically. I think the resistor element inside the TPS is shot. It's noisy as hell, and it actually dips when I depress the throttle, then starts going back up. I tested it with an ohmmeter and confirmed that it's in bad shape. So I'd appreciate any advice on how I can alter my settings (or otherwise perform hardware trickery) temporarily to take the TPS out of the equation. Basically, what are you other 1.6ers without a variable TPS doing? Ultimately I'm going to use my old TB with it's switch-type TPS housing and try to retrofit something into it. There's a certain Honda TPS that looks promising.
I took it out for a beer run this morning and it drives OK. The mixture is not perfect- in places it swings from 12:1 to 18:1, but I've got the EGO authority turned way up right now, so that may be partly to blame. I even took it up to about 3 or 4 PSI of boost, and it was wonderful.
MAT is giving believable values, CLT seems a bit off. In the attached log, the engine was at ambient temp (about 65°F) to start with, so MAT and CLT should have been the same. OTOH, CLT is giving believable values at the upper end of the scale.
I wonder if the gurus might take a look at my attached log, MSQ, and custom.ini and make suggestions concerning my cold starting problem and also how to eliminate any side-effects that my funky TPS may be causing.
Obligatory ego-enhancing build photos:
The MS, mounted to the brackets I made:
Built a new engine sub-harness to deal with all the new sensors. It goes through the firewall where one of the A/C pipes used to be.
MS in its new home:
Wired up, with KnockSenseMS also mounted. The remains of the factory harness are tucked up at the top. I couldn't bring myself to actually dike it all off.
Hmm. An EMU, an EMU wiring harness, and EMU MAP sensor... What am I to do with these things?
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01-28-2008, 11:14 AM
#5
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patsmx5 and crashnscar, I used a combination of solder & shrink, crimp-bullet, and crimp-spade connectors as I felt appropriate. For example, the 6" tail that came with the new TPS is soldered to the sub-harness, as are the IAT and EBC connectors. Any wire that simply needed lengthening was also soldered- the KnockSense LED for instance, as well as the tail coming off my WBO2 gauge, which has previously been trimmed short to accommodate the under-radio placement of my EMU.
On the other hand, wires that intersected the factory harness were, for the most part, done with disconnectable crimp-type connectors for a number of reasons.
It's actually not as many connections as it looks like. The bundle is somewhat artificially large because the unused portion of the factory ECU harness is folded over itself and tucked out of the way at the top.
First, I like to preserve the ability to remove all this nonsense and return to stock if need be. Hence the decision not to remove entirely the factory ECU connectors.
Second, I re-used some of the work I'd previously done installing the EMU. For instance, the ignition trigger wires had previously been cut and had bullets attached, so I kept those intact and installed mating bullets on the MS harness. Likewise, certain lines on the factory harness (CLT, +12, etc) has previously has vampire taps attached, so I left those and put male spades on the MS harness to attach to them. In fact, the only connectors left over from my EMU install that I wasn't able to reuse were the two INJ lines. Those had red bullets on them, but the INJ wires I put on the MS were 16ga and I didn't have any mating blue bullets. So I diked those off and installed red spades on the car side and blue spades on the MS side.
Third, have you actually tried soldering down in the passenger footwell? Maybe the '94-'97 guys with their behind-the-seat ECU could solder onto their factory harness...
Magna, yes, it's a full standalone- hence the two yellow factory connectors tucked way up top, and the absence of a stock ECU from any of the pictures.
Er... is that a good thing or a bad thing?
But, on a more important note. I played with the ASE settings a bit this morning. Changed "MAP mode during ASE" from fixed to normal, didn't really make a difference. I wonder why everyone is using Fixed at 80kpa...
It almost seems like I'm getting too much fuel. Perhaps tomorrow morning I shall try pulling a few plugs after the initial crank-fest.
It's just very worrysome that if I'm having this much trouble when its 70° outside, what will I do if we get another 50° cold snap?
On the other hand, wires that intersected the factory harness were, for the most part, done with disconnectable crimp-type connectors for a number of reasons.
It's actually not as many connections as it looks like. The bundle is somewhat artificially large because the unused portion of the factory ECU harness is folded over itself and tucked out of the way at the top.
First, I like to preserve the ability to remove all this nonsense and return to stock if need be. Hence the decision not to remove entirely the factory ECU connectors.
Second, I re-used some of the work I'd previously done installing the EMU. For instance, the ignition trigger wires had previously been cut and had bullets attached, so I kept those intact and installed mating bullets on the MS harness. Likewise, certain lines on the factory harness (CLT, +12, etc) has previously has vampire taps attached, so I left those and put male spades on the MS harness to attach to them. In fact, the only connectors left over from my EMU install that I wasn't able to reuse were the two INJ lines. Those had red bullets on them, but the INJ wires I put on the MS were 16ga and I didn't have any mating blue bullets. So I diked those off and installed red spades on the car side and blue spades on the MS side.
Third, have you actually tried soldering down in the passenger footwell? Maybe the '94-'97 guys with their behind-the-seat ECU could solder onto their factory harness...
Magna, yes, it's a full standalone- hence the two yellow factory connectors tucked way up top, and the absence of a stock ECU from any of the pictures.
Originally Posted by Magnamx5
Joe fwiw you look just like i thought you would.
But, on a more important note. I played with the ASE settings a bit this morning. Changed "MAP mode during ASE" from fixed to normal, didn't really make a difference. I wonder why everyone is using Fixed at 80kpa...
It almost seems like I'm getting too much fuel. Perhaps tomorrow morning I shall try pulling a few plugs after the initial crank-fest.
It's just very worrysome that if I'm having this much trouble when its 70° outside, what will I do if we get another 50° cold snap?
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01-28-2008, 08:52 PM
#7
To eliminate funky TPS issues i would just unplug it for now. You don't need it because you're already using mapdot. As for you cold starting issues try these settings instead. Nothing special changed but i like the way this is setup much more. Keeps backfires with key on away and things like that. Considering you have to let the wideband warm up for a little bit before you crank it anyway the 2 secs prime is better anyway.
Do you think your PWs are just not enough fuel or what?
Do you think your PWs are just not enough fuel or what?
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01-29-2008, 12:04 AM
#8
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Thanks, but actually, that's exactly what my cranking screen looks like already. (well, I had 3.1ms at +40, but apart from that identical. I converted everything to Fahrenheit yesterday to be more consistent with everyone else.)
It seems I'm having trouble both with cranking and with staying running after it finally catches. It'll run (poorly) for a few seconds, then still. Crank it again and it'll struggle a bit longer, then stall. Sometimes I can work the throttle a bit to keep it running, sometimes it stalls anyway.
I wish I had a videocamera so I could record what its doing. I'll try to borrow one from somebody.
Oh, and I disconnected the TPS earlier this afternoon. Doesn't seem to have had any effect, but it's one variable out of the way.
It seems I'm having trouble both with cranking and with staying running after it finally catches. It'll run (poorly) for a few seconds, then still. Crank it again and it'll struggle a bit longer, then stall. Sometimes I can work the throttle a bit to keep it running, sometimes it stalls anyway.
I wish I had a videocamera so I could record what its doing. I'll try to borrow one from somebody.
Oh, and I disconnected the TPS earlier this afternoon. Doesn't seem to have had any effect, but it's one variable out of the way.
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01-29-2008, 12:41 AM
#9
That actually is your cranking table. Only thing i changed was the prime pulse>0 and after 2 secs. I prefer those settings to what you had.
I couldn't see anything else in particular in your MSQ that was wrong or weird. You had some oddball figures in your fuel table that could stand to be smoothed out by hand. But when i loaded your MSQ i had 27 errors so it might have been corrupted.
I couldn't see anything else in particular in your MSQ that was wrong or weird. You had some oddball figures in your fuel table that could stand to be smoothed out by hand. But when i loaded your MSQ i had 27 errors so it might have been corrupted.
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01-29-2008, 01:09 AM
#10
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Well, the errors are probably because the MSQ I uploaded was originally cone in degrees C. It seems everyone around here uses degrees F, so I converted. My current MSQ is attached.
As you can see, the cranking table I've got at the moment matches the one you posted almost exactly. It's a bit frustrating trying to tune this because I have to wait several hours in between attempts- it starts adequately when warm.
I'll see what it does tomorrow morning and report back. FWIW, what do you think of my current warmup and ASE?
As you can see, the cranking table I've got at the moment matches the one you posted almost exactly. It's a bit frustrating trying to tune this because I have to wait several hours in between attempts- it starts adequately when warm.
I'll see what it does tomorrow morning and report back. FWIW, what do you think of my current warmup and ASE?
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01-29-2008, 09:50 AM
#11
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More of the same this morning...
Today at lunchtime I'm going to take the car out for a spin, perhaps I'll try throwing a few ms more cranking fuel at it...
This mornings data attached.
Today at lunchtime I'm going to take the car out for a spin, perhaps I'll try throwing a few ms more cranking fuel at it...
This mornings data attached.
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01-29-2008, 02:36 PM
#13
It seems I'm having trouble both with cranking and with staying running after it finally catches. It'll run (poorly) for a few seconds, then still. Crank it again and it'll struggle a bit longer, then stall. Sometimes I can work the throttle a bit to keep it running, sometimes it stalls anyway.
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01-29-2008, 03:36 PM
#14
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Progress!
I went out for a spin at lunchtime. Prior to turning the key, I threw some arbitrarily larger numbers into cranking pulsewidths in the area surrounding 80°, which is what my CLT erroneously thinks the temperature is right now. (It's actually 55° at the moment.) It fired up on the second attempt. Still ran poorly for a little while, but then I haven't touched the ASE or Warmup Wizard settings yet.
So I think I'm getting closer. I'd been hesitant to throw too much fuel at it based on others' tales of woe and flooding, but I think in this case the answer is more fuel, not less.
Gonna enrich the ASE and warmup a bit before I go home this evening and we'll see how that goes.
Arkmage, my ASE table is very similar to the one Brainy posted in your thread (just a trifle richer, actually) but apparently my car is just a cold-blooded sonufabitch. Maybe the HR code is just a trifle different. Here's what it looks like now, but I'm gonna richen it up and see what that does.
I went out for a spin at lunchtime. Prior to turning the key, I threw some arbitrarily larger numbers into cranking pulsewidths in the area surrounding 80°, which is what my CLT erroneously thinks the temperature is right now. (It's actually 55° at the moment.) It fired up on the second attempt. Still ran poorly for a little while, but then I haven't touched the ASE or Warmup Wizard settings yet.
So I think I'm getting closer. I'd been hesitant to throw too much fuel at it based on others' tales of woe and flooding, but I think in this case the answer is more fuel, not less.
Gonna enrich the ASE and warmup a bit before I go home this evening and we'll see how that goes.
Arkmage, my ASE table is very similar to the one Brainy posted in your thread (just a trifle richer, actually) but apparently my car is just a cold-blooded sonufabitch. Maybe the HR code is just a trifle different. Here's what it looks like now, but I'm gonna richen it up and see what that does.
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01-29-2008, 03:47 PM
#15
I'm sure you've read this a million times over but when i tune the cranking PWs i just do it real slow one time and don't have to touch it again.
If it doesn't start on the first crank and you know its lean, then stop cranking. Add .1 ms of fuel, burn and try again. Do that until it starts on the first turn over. I had to do this a couple weeks ago for 10* cold weather and now it's golden.
Getting the clt sensor to read right will be pretty important though as well. Are you using the sensor values that diyautotune has in their .ini files for the mspnp? Their values are supposedly better than what many of us was using for a while.
If it doesn't start on the first crank and you know its lean, then stop cranking. Add .1 ms of fuel, burn and try again. Do that until it starts on the first turn over. I had to do this a couple weeks ago for 10* cold weather and now it's golden.
Getting the clt sensor to read right will be pretty important though as well. Are you using the sensor values that diyautotune has in their .ini files for the mspnp? Their values are supposedly better than what many of us was using for a while.
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01-29-2008, 04:11 PM
#16
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Indeed. I hadn't expected my engine to behave so amazingly badly on the settings that seem to work for everyone else. I guess my car is unique.
I haven't bothered much with the CLT since it's not *that* far off, but I guess I do need to fix it before I go much further.
I'm still learning the file structure of the tuning software, so bear with me a sec...
(God, I love VirtualPC)
Ok, I just installed DIY's MSPNP software on one of the five installations of WindowsXP I have on this computer, and after much searching I assume you mean the thermfactor.inc file, which says:
; Input Data: Temp, degF Resistance
; -4 16150
; 104 1150
; 176 330
I'll try re-doing EasyTherm with these numbers. (Yes, I know to pull my igniter first. )
Question- my understanding is that doing an update will blow away all my settings in the firmware. What is the best method for uploading everything again in a single dump? Is that what the "Tools -> Dump" function does?
edit That was a stupid question. When you start MegaTune it automatically loads all the settings out of the MS, and when you open an .MSQ MegaTune asks you if you want to save and burn all the data into the MS.
I haven't bothered much with the CLT since it's not *that* far off, but I guess I do need to fix it before I go much further.
I'm still learning the file structure of the tuning software, so bear with me a sec...
(God, I love VirtualPC)
Ok, I just installed DIY's MSPNP software on one of the five installations of WindowsXP I have on this computer, and after much searching I assume you mean the thermfactor.inc file, which says:
; Input Data: Temp, degF Resistance
; -4 16150
; 104 1150
; 176 330
I'll try re-doing EasyTherm with these numbers. (Yes, I know to pull my igniter first.
)Question- my understanding is that doing an update will blow away all my settings in the firmware. What is the best method for uploading everything again in a single dump? Is that what the "Tools -> Dump" function does?
edit That was a stupid question. When you start MegaTune it automatically loads all the settings out of the MS, and when you open an .MSQ MegaTune asks you if you want to save and burn all the data into the MS.
Last edited by Joe Perez; 01-29-2008 at 09:15 PM.
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01-30-2008, 11:25 AM
#17
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Well, progress is being made. Thanks for cjernigan for the advice on the therm values. This morning my CLT read exactly 60°, which agreed with the MAT and is pretty damn close to the actual temperature in my garage. This evening I'll bring the lab thermometer outside with me and see just how close. It seems accurate at the upper end of the scale as well- indicates a stable 190°-195° operating temp, which is about what the EMU used to tell me and tracks the measured characteristics of my dash gauge.
♫"Gimme fuel, gimme fire, gimme that which I desire!"♫
The car also started on the first turn of the key. The solution was definitely more fuel in the cranking table than I'd been using- a lot more. I put 5.2 into the 60° cell (isn't it nice when a cell lines up exactly with reality) and I think it could actually use just a few points more. Hopefully it's 60° outside again tonight.
Cold operation is still a bit rough. It stalled once just after being started, and then ran quite poorly. Super-rich initially, going to super-lean once I start out of the driveway. I think I've got too much ASE and not enough Warmup. Gonna see if I can strike a happy balance between those two.
Not to mention idle... Warm idle is damn near perfect, cold idle tends to be around 500-600 RPM. That ain't right...
But we're gettin' there. Nobody said this would be easy.
♫"Gimme fuel, gimme fire, gimme that which I desire!"♫
The car also started on the first turn of the key. The solution was definitely more fuel in the cranking table than I'd been using- a lot more. I put 5.2 into the 60° cell (isn't it nice when a cell lines up exactly with reality) and I think it could actually use just a few points more. Hopefully it's 60° outside again tonight.
Cold operation is still a bit rough. It stalled once just after being started, and then ran quite poorly. Super-rich initially, going to super-lean once I start out of the driveway. I think I've got too much ASE and not enough Warmup. Gonna see if I can strike a happy balance between those two.
Not to mention idle... Warm idle is damn near perfect, cold idle tends to be around 500-600 RPM. That ain't right...
But we're gettin' there. Nobody said this would be easy.
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01-30-2008, 08:21 PM
#19
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Indeed it was. This evening I measured 56° degrees outside with the lab thermometer (a Fluke model 52) and the CLT reading was 60°. Close enough for me.
Although with the increased cranking fuel it's now firing reliably during cranking, I'm still having issues keeping it running after a cold start. Like several minutes- longer than just ASE. I keep increasing the values in warmup wizard, and I'm still not there. It just weirds me out that I'm having to pour so much more fuel into this engine than everyone else.
Here's the current warmup table (note that I haven't changed anything below 60° yet):
Although with the increased cranking fuel it's now firing reliably during cranking, I'm still having issues keeping it running after a cold start. Like several minutes- longer than just ASE. I keep increasing the values in warmup wizard, and I'm still not there. It just weirds me out that I'm having to pour so much more fuel into this engine than everyone else.
Here's the current warmup table (note that I haven't changed anything below 60° yet):
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01-31-2008, 04:00 AM
#20
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you sure you've not gone past the sweet spot and your just making the problem worse with more fuel?
FWIW I find once the engine has 30 - 40degC in it, it baresly needs anymore fuel.
Are you using the AFR 'meter' on the other side of the window? You should still be aiming for the same AFR's, it's just that cold engines need more fuel as they don't atomize the air and fuel as well.
my WUE - ASE combination isn't perfect, but once out of ASE the WUE is spot on, I just sat in the car 'Inc' and 'Dec' the fuel whilst the engine got to full temp. not touched it since...
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