Look at my timing map tell me its safe ?
 

Ive been looking at the maps everyone else has posted and it has me alittle nervous about my map.

I Cant hear any Ping, nor can my buddy who has tuned his 12second mustang.

But it just seems like im running a crazy amount of timing compared to everyone else.

Car pulls Great all the way to redline.

specs, 92 1.6L, Stock header, 2inch side exit exhaust no cat cherry bomb muffler, Webcams.

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i1...zle/timing.jpg

Very safe on 93 octane, but not so retarded that you'll run the EGTs up. Not a map for power, but a good, safe map.

There is no way in HELL you can run 31* @ 800 RPM or 33* @ 1200 RPM at 101 kpa. No way. Change that to like 20 and 22 respectively. And even the 1800 @ 101kPa needs to be pulled back some. There's no way you can that much timing in that soon without knocking.

Also you 101kPa rows across all look high to me. Nobody here runs that much timing in those rows. Cruise cells are rather aggressive as well. I'd change it.

Boost cells are safe though. Rather conservative actually.

Im NA so i havnt touched the Boosted cells.

The whole map is ment to be aggressive, Lugging the engine in 5th at 1000-1200 had no aubible ping/knock. Cruise has no audible knock or ping either.

But i guess ill back the whole map down alittle till i get to the dyno Saturday.

Im guessing Sav just looked at the boosted cells then ?


This is the Table i was using before and the local miata guys said i could go alittle more.
http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i1...e/newtable.jpg

No boost yet correct? The 100 kpa and below cells look fine for out of boost if you run high octane... you don't need all that timing in cruise tho

Either you don't know what knock sounds like, or your base timing it off. Have you verified that TDC on the balancer is indeed TDC?

I run like 20* @101kPa and 500 RPMs, 22 at 1000 RPMs, maybe 26 by 1500, and 29 by 2K all at 101kPa. Add two degrees to any of those numbers and my shit knocks.

Ive never heard Knock in a miata but ive had it in my 73 hornet I6 and my 240.

TDC on the balancer is TDC.

NO BOOST.. motor is still NA.

Running 93 Octane highest pump gas we have.

For comparison, here's my map. I have a lot of headwork, and ~8.5:1 compression. All cells N/A below 3500 are all the advance I can run without knock. Add 2 degrees to that region and it will knock in ever cell. Above 3500 N/A, it's conservative. I've ran more timing there, but it does fine like this. In boost it's a bit conservative too, as I don't wanna loose a motor if say, I loose 10PSI fuel pressure and go into high 13's at 11 PSI.

Attachment 208793

Hmm... do you know what the stock ecu adds at WOT ?

I was told it adds up to 20* to the base, which is what i based my WOT numbers off.

If this Map doesnt Ping/knock on the dyno ill keep using it, untill then ill back it off.

How do I save my spark table so I can post it up here??

Open your msq, open the spark table, then go to file>export>save as. Then attach it here.

I have no clue about the stock timing. I think it's in the low 30's though. I still don't see how it could possibly not knock at 500 and 1000 RPMs with that much timing. Pretty much impossible for it not to.

Ok here's my spark table for comparison. It's hard to figure out exactly how far you can go in all the cells... When I was spiking to 8 psi at 4k rpms it would ping a bit so I backed all the 156kpa cells off a bit but this map seems to work pretty well.

edit: ok why did mine come out as a downloadable file isntead of a picture..
-Ryan

Attachment 208792

Mine. Don't copy it.

Open megatune, open the spark map and do ALT+Print screen, then paste that in paint and save it.

if stock is 30* with 10* base then the people that run 18* base are running within 1-2* of me.

But it seems no one else is running as much as me with MS... they dyno will tell all.

My current spark table. I've been gradually adding advance in the boosted cells a degree or two at a time for the past few days. Hard to know (without a dyno) exactly when to stop. The KnocksenseMS is still giving me false indications...

http://img33.picoodle.com/img/img33/...km_535d4ba.gif

I'll note this is with WI and a FMIC, on a 1.6 with all stock internals and a TD04H-15G.

Joe, I never knew you were running the tdo4-15g turbo:hustler:

threadjack over---

Looking at yours, I believe back when I began tuning I did exactly that, or at least loosely based mine on yours haha
[IMG]http://i175.photobucket.com/albums/w...lesnapshot.jpg[/IMG]

-Ryan

Ryan, how much boost do you run? If I ran your map I'd ping.

I've had it up to 8 psi so I've been in the 156 kpa row but not above. I've tuned for the fact that I have the greddy downpipe holding spool back until 4k - a bit more spark to help ecourage the ca ralong before that rpm. The guys at Begi are welding my new downpipe at the end of the week and with that I'll install the 460's.. then to 10-11 psi and I certainly may have to pull timing from that 184 kpa row.. who knows. I will add however that this intercooler seems to keep iats quite happy, though exact #'s I do not yet have as AFM removal and installation of the proper IAT sensor is on the to do list but it most likely contributes to being able to run decent timing in boost..
Found another pic of the big ol thing:
[IMG]http://i175.photobucket.com/albums/w...09618251-1.jpg[/IMG]

No, you got that wrong. Stock is 10* advance at idle with a TOTAL of 30* advance. So if you had the stock ECU timing map it would have 10's in it for idle and 30 for 101kPa.

Right that would be 30* total advance with 10*base, there have been people run 18* base and that would be a TOTAL advance of 38*.

That's still ASSuming 30* total advance is factory. I don't know what factory spec is.

Anyways, none of that matters. Your original map you posted is pretty ridiculous. Too much timing at high load, high RPM. Too much at 101kPa in the mid range, but then falls on it's ass at high RPM? Backwards like whoa. My map is more or less the curve you're looking to run, though it may be (likely is) lower than optimal.

From my dyno graphs on the stock ecu i found power would fall off quicker up top at 14* than at 10*. So i put less timing up top, although i could add some to the 6300 cells.

What makes it too much ? if the car doesnt Knock or ping at those levels why not run it ?

And im not going for Lower than optimal, i want every last HP i can tune out of the thing, While still being some what safe.

Im not gonna drive around with Detination(sp) but im not gonna run less timing just to be save.

So if that means 39 makes the best power and 40 pings ill run 39.

I/We will know how well it works saturday since it will be on the dyno then.

I will test the Base Map, my Agressive map, then the Agressive map holding 39 to redline.

Do what you will. No way in hell I'd run your timing map. I think you're looking at it all wrong. Minimum timing for Best Torque (MBT) can sometimes be reached before knock. Dyno will tell you this too. People here that have high 30's for high RPM 101kPa cells are all boosted and never really use those cells. (other than falling through them when shifting, which practically doesn't count as load's not the same)

Very true didnt think much about that, Dyno will tell in the end but thats a really really good point.

Pat nailed it. This is why it's so hard to tune a spark map on the street. Without knowing how much power every degree adds, it is impossible to dial it in perfectly. You can get close on pump gas with boost, just because you detonate far before you get to MBT, but with race gas or an NA setup it's damn near impossible.

I'm curious if you verified this with the timing light... setting your spark in MSPNP to +10* (instead of -10, use map option) and verify your CAS properly calibrated with what the timing light is reading out. If I'm not mistaken, verifying pulley is aligned with piston TDC is not the same as its calibration with the CAS.

I have a copy of some Miata book by Norman H Garrett (previous Mazda engineer). He has a spark timing map, and it shows max ignition adv on a stock Miata is only ~26-27 deg. Plus, just as Pat mentioned with MBT coming before knock limit, 18* idle advance on a stock motor produces LESS peak power than the 14* idle advance setting. 18* advance gives better low-end torque.

the crank pulley is aligned with Cyl TDC, My timing is Set at *10 with MS set to +10*, Not sure how else i need to look at it.

I never dyno`d my car with 18* but found huge gains under 4500 and good gains till redline with 14*

I gained 13hp and 16tq @4k rpm and gained 9hp and 11tq Peak.

So if the max advance is 27* with 10* base i would have been running 31* with 14* base.

Im going to the track tonight and will try a few diffrent maps.

the base map.
A map with max of 31*
and my Agressive map with a max of 39.

If theres time i will go from the fastest map up or down 2* to see if it gets faster or slower.

Sweet, nvm my question then, you got the timings all set up.

Let me know it goes at the track! I'm pretty curious to hear about the different spark maps and performance.

Ill be leaving within an hr and ill be posting back once i get home.

And should be on the dyno saturday and we will have hard #s then.

Try to start your pulls as low in the RPM range as possible. Datalog EVERY run. Try my map if you wish. :)

Well the track was fun, i sucked at shifting tonight but its been a while and alot on my mind.

Using the map that peaks at 34* i was able to get my best time.

Missed 3rd though as you can tell by my trap speed.
2.1 60ft ever so slight bog, may be able to get a 2.05.
6.23 330ft
9.84 1/8th mile
68mph

My second best also on 34*
2.31 60ft spun
6.38 330ft
9.86 1/8th mile
70mph

I think if i could have gotten a good clean run with a 2.1 60ft and not missed a gear i could have done a 9.65.

But its still faster then it was.

Reworked the top of my spark table as I'm moving up to more boost in the immediate future. Also changed the resolution for all the rows over 100 kpa to a max of 210 (15.9 psi) as I am planning on not going over 12 psi for a long long time. Thought I would update here.
http://i175.photobucket.com/albums/w...lesnapshot.jpg
-Ryan

Just so i know what my spark map needs to look like, keep in mind im deployed atm and havnt been able to install my ms on my 99. I plan on running 12psi on 550cc injectors. What should i be shooting for as far as spark map. Not trying to jack the thread there just seems to be alot of knowledge in this thread.

Sorry pat but im gonna say you were wrong about that kind of timing.

https://www.miataturbo.net/forum/t31516/#post368480

So that's why I've been coughing up my lungs every time I drive the car.

plus I welded up a new exhaust to it