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Old 05-07-2012, 10:19 AM   #1
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Default Looking for MS1 Settings for 36-1 Trigger

After trying and trying to get rid of the highway hiccup that seems to be common due to our CAS Setup I'm going to switch to a 36-1 trigger wheel off of the crank using parts from this thread: https://www.miataturbo.net/showthrea...highlight=36-1

I plan on using the zmde wheel and sensor which should be bolt on as the oil pumps are the same part number. Wiring it to my megasquirt which should be fairly easy, but I am a bit confused on how to set it up in megasquirt. Will I need to make any internal changes, And should I run it parallel with the CAS or remove the CAS all together?

Thanks for any help!
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Old 05-09-2012, 02:01 AM   #2
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if you are running batch fuel\ wasted spark all you will need is the 36-1 setup correctly.
If you want seq fuel\spark then you will also need cam timing from somewhere. Be it the orginal cas or a front mounted sensor, etc
and if you do remove the cas don't forget you got to plug the port somehow.
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Old 05-09-2012, 03:40 AM   #3
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seeing as your going from no crank sensor to having one, make sure your MS has the VR circuit setup. even if it does you need to change the jumpers to VrOUTINV and TSEL and VRIN and TACHSELECT

Unless the codebase has changed since i did my KL on a 36-1 crank wheel, you will need to add the individual tooth locations for both trigger events in the software (assuming batch, MS1 does not do sequential)
http://www.msextra.com/doc/ms1extra/...tm#wastedsetts
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Old 05-09-2012, 09:36 AM   #4
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Basically I will need to remove the original cmp and ckp setup show here http://www.diyautotune.com/jwplayer_...input_mods.jpg

And then mod the board for a VR Circuit.
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Old 05-09-2012, 09:51 AM   #5
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correct but you dont have to remove the mods themselves, just change the jumpers and build the VR circuit.
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Old 05-09-2012, 02:34 PM   #6
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Upon further investigation it appears that I shouldn't have to modify anything inside at all if I use a hall effect sensor. It appears that I can wire the new 36-1 sensors signal input to pin 24 of the MS1, change the trigger settings to those shown here: http://www.msextra.com/doc/ms1extra/....htm#wheeldecr and it *should* fire right up.
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Old 05-09-2012, 02:40 PM   #7
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but the wheel and associated sensor your talking about is a VR sensor...
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Old 05-09-2012, 03:48 PM   #8
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Bear with me here, I'm tryin to get this straight. Couldnt I use the 36-1 wheel with an NB crank sensor (which is hall effect) to get the results I am looking for?
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Old 05-09-2012, 04:24 PM   #9
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the NB crank sensor is a VR sensor

post stolen from another forum made by joe perez:

Quote:
After looking at the wiring diagram for the 96 engine electronics, it looks as if the crankshaft sensor may be a magnetic style of sensor instead of a hall effects type.The crank sensor on the '96-'97 is a raw VR sensor, which I assume is what you mean by a "mag" sensor. (Hall sensors are also magnetic, but use semiconductor pickups instead of coils.) IOW, it outputs a differential AC sinewave, not a DC squarewave.

As a bit of trivia: the crank and cam sensors on the NB engines are technically also VR sensors, however they have internal conditioning circuitry which gives them an open-collector output that produces a signal similar to a hall sensor. Ditto the non-optical CASs on the NAs.

A true hall-effect sensor will always be sensing an actual magnet attached to the crank/pulley/etc, not simply a piece of metal with teeth cut into it. A VR sensor has the magnet built in, so all you need to do is pass a bit of ferrous metal in front of it to modulate the field.
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Old 05-09-2012, 04:43 PM   #10
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I'm trying to do what hustler was doing in this thread https://www.miataturbo.net/showthrea...trigger&page=4

except with the 36-1 wheel which I can easily optain from a local pull it yard along with the sensor and and necessary plugs/wiring.
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Old 05-09-2012, 04:44 PM   #11
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It's kind of a trivial point. It's a VR sensor internally, but it looks like a hall sensor to the outside world.

Yes, you can use a stock NB sensor.
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Old 05-09-2012, 04:58 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Perez View Post
It's kind of a trivial point. It's a VR sensor internally, but it looks like a hall sensor to the outside world.

Yes, you can use a stock NB sensor.
Joe, Thanks for the info. Now say I wanted to use the stock zmde sensor which is readily available to me and is a bolt on deal.

the sensor looks like this: http://www.google.com/imgres?q=stand...9,r:5,s:0,i:86

Im assuming (but hoping im wrong because it does in fact have 3 wires and not 2) that this is a VR sensor with no internal conversion to hall effect as with the NB sensor, and I would need to build a VR circuit to use this.
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Old 05-09-2012, 05:11 PM   #13
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I can't say with certainty, but my guess would be that the sensor you linked to above does have a logic level (open-collector) output. Naked VR sensors are pretty common in the drivetrain (ABS, speedo, etc) but Mazda seems to prefer conditioned sensors on the engine for some reason.

At any rate, the circuit (using the opto on the MS main board) that most of us know as the "hall / opto circuit" is garbage. The VR input circuit is a better choice even for hall-style sensors. An even better choice yet would be one with some decent filter and hysteresis, although that gets into the neighborhood of heavy custom circuit-fab.

If I'd have paid a bit more attention to signal condition years ago when I was building the red car, I'd probably have been able to solve the problems I was having cheaply and easily, and never have driven myself to the point of fabricating that exotic crank-trigger.
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Old 05-09-2012, 05:18 PM   #14
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I can get these Parts for next to nothing so I suppose it's worth a shot, But from what you are saying is the whole system is garbage and I'm better off making a vr circuit?
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Old 05-09-2012, 05:58 PM   #15
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Well,

(hmm.)

The "hall / opto" circuit on the main MS board, the one with the 4N25 opto, doesn't have any filtering on it. It isolates the CPU from the outside world, but doesn't clean up the signal at all.

The Miata's crank and cam sensors have historically proven to be kind of noisy. So there is some benefit to having both low-pass filtering (noise reduction) and hysteresis (dynamic high / low threshold adjustment) on the line, to ensure that only "real" signals get through and trigger the CPU.

The "VR" circuit implements both of these to a small degree, so it's an improvement. The designers of the MS3X, in fact, recognized that the old opto circuit was pointless an excluded it entirely. If you have an MS3X, you are using a version of the "VR" circuit for your cam sensor. Makes sense to do the same for the crank sensor.
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Old 05-09-2012, 07:59 PM   #16
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the KL crank sensor was a regular 2 wire VR, and im 90% sure the 97 crank sensor i stole from a miata was also. It has been awhile since i went out and actually looked to see if its 2 or 3 wire.

either way as joe elaborated, the VR circuit is still the preferred option seeing as your MS1
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Old 05-09-2012, 11:29 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MD323 View Post
the KL crank sensor was a regular 2 wire VR, and im 90% sure the 97 crank sensor i stole from a miata was also. It has been awhile since i went out and actually looked to see if its 2 or 3 wire.
Yes, the '96 and '97 used a "naked" VR sensor, and also has a different crankplate. Same basic pattern as the NB plate, but with ramp-out (or is it ramp-in?) to the teeth, Kind of funny-looking.
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Old 05-10-2012, 01:32 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Perez View Post
Yes, the '96 and '97 used a "naked" VR sensor, and also has a different crankplate. Same basic pattern as the NB plate, but with ramp-out (or is it ramp-in?) to the teeth, Kind of funny-looking.
it just dawned on me my mistake, when he said NB i mistakenly thought of the 96 and up BP and sensors. my bad, i keep track of too many BP variations acrossed all the different platforms.
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Old 05-10-2012, 02:02 AM   #19
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Gotcha.

I honestly have no idea why Mazda chose to introduce a traditional (unconditioned) VR sensor in the '96 and '97 engines, nor why, having done so, they then decided to switch back to internally-conditioned sensors for both the crank and cam starting in '99. The VR crank sensor would have worked just fine in the NB had they decided to go that route.

Typically, manufacturing engineers hate to change the tooling for a part without a good reason (these are the same folks who will spend an entire day arguing about the most efficient way to shave a fiftieth of a cent off of the production cost of a bolt), and yet I can't think of a plausible justification for making the change away from the '96-'97 design.
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Old 05-10-2012, 02:10 AM   #20
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yeah especially since its the sensor used on the KL, FS, and z5/Z6 (I now question the post 99 versions of all but the KL sensor and plan to find out) , which is also why I assumed it was a regular VR sensor like the rest.


lesson learned I guess.
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