mspnp
 

i have a question with my mspnp. i finished the install in my car with the maf delete. i loaded in the base map that cme with the software, and also loaded the firmware for the maf delete per the instructions. my only problem is that the
car does not want to hold idle for jack. also any changes that i make to the maps does not get loaded into the mspnp. anybody in nyc that has any experience with the mspnp wanna help me out.

What is your setup, is it cold start or dip while running what is the problem be more specific.

and list year of car and modifications
:gtfo:

Not loading into the MS is normal... you have to click the "burn" button or the changes are lost on reboot.

Did you install the intake air temp sensor?

i am running a greddy kit with the maf delete. currently running 330 injectors. on start up i need to keep gaing the car in order to get it to crank over. after it does crank over i need to keep reving the car in order to prevent it from stalling out.

did you changed the req_fuel to reflect that you have larger injectors? did you use the AFM delete map?

hmm check your afterstart enrichments, did the car run on stock ecu?

yeah i changed the req-fuel. didnt really play with the startup settings. the main problem is trying to keep the car idling.

add more fuel at the 500/1000 settings? and the afterstart enrichments.

I don't know what gaing the car is, but I'm pretty sure I don't want anything to do with it.

I hate to be the spelling police, but for Γμ©К's sake dude, if you can't communicate with us, we can't help you.

sorry meant to say, i have to keep pressing on the gas in order to get it to turn over. but before i put the mspnp in. i had an emanage in there then switched back over to the stock ecu. at that time the car turned over fine, just was running rich from the 330s. just really lost on this right now.

Cranking pulse-width settings should be lowered, as the stock injectors flow about 60% as much fuel as your 330's (stock injectors are somewhere between 205 and 230 on a 1.6, depending on the fuel pressure they're measured at). It doesn't take long to scale the cranking pulse widths - there's only 10 bins. There's a good description of how to do this in the PNP manual.

You're sure the IAT sensor is installed correctly? What are you seeing as your MAT - something reasonably close to ambient?

Accel enrichments will have to be changed eventually as well, but that shouldn't affect startup - start by changing the cranking pulse widths, and ensure your IAT is installed and working correctly.

What do you have your req_fuel set to?

Jeff

Jerry from DIYAutoTune.com here-- there are a couple things that could be going on. Leftovers from bandaids of days of old, an improper scaling of the req_fuel setting, etc. Have you contacted our support guys about this yet? We are more than happy to help you make sure you get it up and running on your car... Shoot us an email at websales AT diyautotune DOT com -- at this point you might include a copy of your current map so we can see what kind of scaling you've done for your 330cc injectors and make sure all looks good. I'll give Matt a heads up to expect an email from you...

Definitely email Jerry. He'll do his magic numbers thing and have your car running in no time. ;)

If it's a fuel issue, I'd bet it's the cold start enrichments as well. I scaled mine for my 460cc injectors and I had to tweak them further to improve the idle. I think I actually had to increase mine after I decreased them all by 45% to re-scale for my larger injectors.

If you haven't rescaled them at all, it's possible you're feeding the motor way too much fuel.

08724 here and just got the 94/95 MSPNP. If you want to shoot down here I may be able to help. PM or email

you did d/c the coil/ignitor when loading the NO MAF firmware right?

I've been in touch with kingred this evening-- he's got his REQ_FUEL scaled properly, though there is a bit more to the mods on the car that need to be factored in and I think we've got it nailed. He's running an Aeromotive AFPR and isn't yet sure what the fuel pressure is set to as there's no gauge hooked up to it yet. He's also got a wideband showing that's it's lean at idle. It sounds to me that though he's scaled his REQ_FUEL properly that it's likely his fuel pressure is lower than the stock which would throw everything off.

This was confirmed when he unplugged the vacuum source from his AFPR and it held idle much better. The AFPR will lower fuel pressure under vacuum and raise it as it approaches atmospheric pressure-- which it thought had happened when the hose had been pulled off.

I'm not sure if it's a rising rate or a 1:1, I fired off that question to him. If it's a 1:1 like factory then if he can get it to match factory pressure then the base map will be helpful to him.... if it's a rising rate then the base map won't do him much good except around idle and maybe low loads. Either way some tuning is going to be needed I'm sure but I think we've figured out the root of the issue here which is good.

dumb questions, and I don't think this is in the manual. Can I make changes on the fly without turning the car off? I assume I have to turn the car off to "burn" each time.

lol, I'm a noob.

You can burn changes while the car is running. And changes to the tables will take effect in real time, though they won't be remembered unless you burn them. You'll usually feel the running engine 'burp' when you burn.

There are a few settings that require a power cycle, those settings pages generally tell you that.

Yeah i was worried about the same thing hustler but IT is realy engenius. the changes the take effect and if you like them then you can burn them in IE saving them or if they suck you can not burn them. Essentialy going back to the last time you burned to the ecu. The MSQ's are so small most of us have 20-30 detailing our tunning progress anyway. I know i always throw down any new map under a new name to keep track if i do something wrong.

Exactly-- when I tune a car I number the maps as well. Of course they are time stamped, but once I give them descriptive names it gets them out of order, if I number them I can follow it with a descriptive name and keep track of progress.

Something like:

1- Base map as driven into the shop.msq
2- Rescaled tables and adjusted constants.msq
3- Fully dialed in VE at all loads up to 4600rpm.msq
4- Scaled VE out above 4600rpm at lower loads.msq
5- Fully dialed in ignition at all loads up to 4600rpm.msq
6- Scaled ignition out above 4600rpm at lower loads.msq
7- Dialed in Accell Enrichments.msq
8- EBC tuning 1.msq
9- EBC tuning 2.msq
10- EBC tuning 3.msq
11- Fine tuning WOT 1.msq
12- Fine tuning WOT 2.msq
13- Fine tuning WOT 3.msq
14- Fine tuning WOT 4.msq
15- Fine tuning WOT 5.msq
16- Final map 247whp 236wtq.msq

Makes life nice and easy if I need to go back at any point, everything stays in order, and you can see the progression of how to go through the tuning process. Notice WOT ramp runs are last...

yeah the aeromotive apfr is a 1:1 ratio. havent got a chance to do anything to the car yet, since it is still sitting at my friends shop. lets hope i get this thing fiqured out if not. if not, i might have to see if jerry would like a paid vacation to ny. so far my current setup on the car is a greddy turbo kit, racing mazda downpipe, custom plumbed ebay ic, aeromotive 1:1 apfr, duel feed fuel rail, walboro fuel pump, rc 550cc injectors, aem wideband, and the mspnp. if any one aroud the nyc area that has experience with the mspnp want to give me a helping hand, all is welcome.

I think we'll get it nailed man... though NY could be nice ;) j/k

you running 330's or 550's?

If those file names don't tell me how to tune a car, then I don't know what will.

Heh... that was kindof the idea. ;) That's basically how I'd do it on a load bearing dyno. You will likely end up making more runs than that but that list/order will give you the gist of it. There are some principals to understand as a part of tuning still such as how much advance is enough, and how to 'scale out the ve and advance beyond xxxx rpm' appropriately, but that's a bigger conversation.

4600rpm was chosen as it's higher than you'd generally cruise in these cars on the highway. You want to steady state tune up to and a bit higher than where you'll be cruising at, but if you try to steady state tune at higher RPMs you have to stop tuning really frequently due to building up too much heat. And since you get into areas of the map you pretty much never hit anyways (do you cruise at light throttle at 120mph generally?) you often can look at the VE trend up to that point and scale that trend across the table from there. Maybe adding a point or two on top of that scaling, per column, to err on the rich side if anything.

How much should I end up paying for tuning? I can't seem to get anyone to do it for less than $600 here in Dallas...which I think is a bit too high.

I don't know if BEGi has a dyno, but if they do I hope they'd cut me a deal since I already gave them $4k.

I can still try to work out a deal out with one of my father's friends, but they probably won't have a steady state dyno.

poor choice of words.

True. True.

Fixed ;)

When I talked to Corky a while back he told me he used a 'local kids' DynoJet. If I had to guess I'd say it's a standard Inertia-only DynoJet which I wouldn't do any real serious tuning on. Maybe WOT if you play it safe. I'm not sure if that's the only dyno they use or not though as I expect they've done some steady state tuning somewhere, but maybe not-- they are tuning mostly Xede's which are a piggyback so they use the stock ECU's base map, they may not worry much about the middle areas of the map since the base map has them close to begin with.

It's different in different areas. But for steady state tuning in our area it's anywhere from $100 - $250/hr. Out in Cali I know it's closer to the high end of that scale most everywhere. Personally if I get ahold of the dyno I'm trying to nab I'll keep it on the low end of that.

Considering you have a nice base map to start from, I wouldn't expect it to take more than 2-3 hours if the tuner knows the software or is able to pick it up pretty quickly. If he knows the software and the MS well, and is familiar with tuning Miatas, no more than 2. Part of that will be cool down time.

Hustler given a 1-2 hour street tune and your previus experience on VW's a 2-3 hour dyno session should square you away. Most dynos run 100 or so $ an hour around here. I hope to god no one pays 600$ to dyno tune there MS sub 600 whp geez.

Well there aren't many load bearing dynos in dallas, and the two I called want $600 or so.

I know a guy with an inertia dyno that is a pretty good tuner who will do it cheaper...but I really thought the load bearing dyno tuning would happen much faster than 4 hours. I told them I'd bring the car with cold-start ready to go, and I just want enrichments, knock retard, spark, and fuel dialed in...one came back with $600, the other came back with $900.

I wonder how much of the 4 hour estimate is alotted for sitting on the rollers, collecting cash?

Everyone here has seen people spend $500 on an exhaust system to pickup maybe 6whp. Or $200 on an intake for 2-3whp.

You've got the tool-- it needs the proper tune. Without it, it's just a tool sitting in the toolbox not being used to it's potential.

I don't know these tuners, I don't know if they will take good care of you and knock this thing out, or if they'll dork around with it for a couple hours and then try to sell you an AEM. But if they know tuning, and they take a few minutes to learn the software, and they have a proper load bearing dyno.... you've never felt your car run better.

Like I said, I can't speak for these tuner's skills-- I don't even know who they are. But what I can speak for is a good tune, a proper tune covering the tables in full, which only a steady state dyno can accomplish (no matter what an inertia dyno owner tells you about 'bumping the brake' -bullcrap-). And that proper tune.... it's worth the money.

$900 is on the high side in our area-- some would pay it gladly to a reputable tuner with a good dyno though. $600, that's more than some, but not that bad really. Think about this. That steady state dyno cost that shop owner AT LEAST DOUBLE what that inertia dyno cost they other guy, maybe triple, and in theory at least he bought it so he could do the job right for you. They're also a bit more complex to run... it's not just 'push the green button to go, and the red button to stop', you have to have a operator with at least half a brain.

That's why you see so many crappy inertia dyno's-- they're cheap and most people don't know any better.

I guess since its going to cost me a fucking grand to get this shit tuned (I know I'm going to get fucked on this) I should send my mspnp back to DIY and get it wired up for tps and mapdaddy.

Do the shops you talked to know that it's got a solid base map on it? Have they tuned on MS before?

It really shouldn't take more than 2-3 hours.

They'd want to steady state in the whole fuel table up to say 4600rpms ish, which shouldn't take more than an hour, and likely much less.

Then they scale out VE above that 4600rpm point that you quick steady state tuning at.

If you're running pump 93 they don't need to touch timing under 100kpa, just steady state it above 100kpa up to maybe 4600rpm which won't take long at all.

Then on to ramp runs for WOT tuning. Maybe starting at low boost and increasing it depending on your goals. This can go somewhat quick, but if you want to play with a manual boost controller tuning at different levels of boost, or tune EBC, it will take longer as you're playing with more variables.

2-3 hrs without EBC. Max 4 hours with EBC I'd think.

Again-- this is assuming they know the software and they're not fumbling through it.

Jerry your looking at buying a steady state dyno?

I'm weighing out the possibility-- they are crazy expensive though and though I wouldn't be looking to get into the full-time commercial tuning business I'd need it to at least pay for it's monthly payments so I'd need to do some...

I'm thinking DynaPack... Just trying to weigh out if it's a good financial decision right now. I've got people that need to tune cars pretty regularly, and I have our own shop needs pretty regularly too. So it seems like I could cover the costs with the people needing a tune around here, but there are a couple challenges there-- one of which is we don't have anyone else here yet that has done much hands on dyno tuning so I'd have to train someone up before we could do too much as though I love it I can't be out there all the time as someone's got to keep the wheels turning in here ;).

We'll see how it works out...

I sure hope he is because that would be great. I'd have no problem driving down to ATL to get my car tuned.

Yeah for not assrageous rates and someone who knows what they are doing. Fuck get a group run together.

If he gets the dyno going on it would be great to have the SE dyno day there.
Do most steady state dyno's bolt directly to the hubs?

No-- the DynaPack is the only that I know of. Like anything they have their pluses/minuses but I really like them.

Dyno Dynamics is a steady state roller dyno, there also at the top of my list but I don't have the shop space.

DynaPacks are portable, don't take much shop space at all, and only require 120v AC and a water supply for cooling. They're use hydraulics for the brakes which don't consume much power to control, just a valve tightening down on the oil flow. Water to keep it cool. They're a bit more painful to put a car on than a roller dyno, but with practice and an organized shop it shouldn't take any longer. I've seen it done in under 5 minutes.

DD dynos are sweet, but take more space, use Eddy current brakes which are great but suck power down. They're one of the best but that's the drawbacks. There's one up in Calhoun, GA I've used once, nice equipment.

There are other brands of steady state roller dynos too-- I don't know of any other hub dynos

The dynapack dynos are the tits. The miata would need 2 pods, each with about the same footprint as a small roll around tool box. If I was big ballin', I'd own a pair and keep them in the garage. They're compact enough, and on wheels. How f'n cool woud that be?

Here's a pic of my car, "on the dyno"
https://www.miataturbo.net/vbgarage....etimage&id=506

how much are those>

Yep-- and at the end of the day you roll those suckers up against the wall out of your way and clear out your floorspace until they're needed again.

(Or do it the way that place does it, take it all apart and stick it in various different places so that I have to find the pieces and assemble it when I come in to tune a car)

New.... $80k+ for that one, it's a AWD model. $60k+ for the equivalent 2wd model

holly hell, didn't know they were that expensive. a mustang md-250 is 32,500 base + freight.

That's alot of megasquirt kits. Hope you're making more coin on the PNPs.

I mean thats only getting 1/10 of all the miatas made using MSPNP I think that is a good goal to shoot for.

I've got my eye on a nice used AWD model... still very pricey... but a bit more realistic....maybe...

If you get a dyno, I'll be seeing you for the tuning on my '99.
Just got the EBC mod and IAT sensor setup from you in the mail today. Thanks.

more problems on the mspnp
 

hey its me again, just wanted to say a thank you to paul for stopping by and giving a helping hand. so i sorted fixed the problem i was have with my mspnp. the car was not idling rite and after emails with jerry from diytune, i kinda got the car to hold an idle around 950 rpm. but the afr is still holding around the high 16's. the second problem is the car seems like it is miss firing. also is the fidle/spark on/off indicator suppose to flash from on to off constantly.

you have a programmable ecu, and a wideband, and you're running lean....
hmmm so what do you think your next step should be?


PS:
http://forum.pctweaks.de/images/smilies/rtfm3lj5.gif

No experince with MSPNP here, but what accomplishes bypass of the fuel cut switch on the AFM or MAF when it is removed(or not yet). Does he need to do something additional? Symptoms seem to mimic fuel cut at no air flow.

The MSPNP turns on the fuel pump any time it senses RPM.

We're using the FIDLE output to PWM your idle valve-- that means cut it on and off very quickly to control the valve, so yes, it's going to flash on and off.

The other problem you mentioned is one and the same. On batch injection these cars will misfire at idle at anything leaner than about 14:1, and really like to be at 13.3:1. You're missing because you're at 16:1. Tune it to 13.3:1 at idle.

Tuning time, something to consider I guess when getting the MSPNP. Seems like it is tough to dial it in without a fair amount of dyno time and some experience with the software.

yeah but replace MSPNP with any piggback or stand alone and its the same.

Not tough, just can't be an afterthought. The base map is so right on for a bone stock car it's ridiculous-- but anytime you put a standalone in a car and it's anything but the same car the base map was tuned on, some fine tuning is required. One quick read of the manual mentions this several times.

It's actually very easy to tune- and mostly tuned for you. If you read the manual and take the time to understand some base tuning concepts, you'll be fine. If you don't, you'll struggle. Wideband o2 is pretty much necessary, either your own or on a dyno.

This is a full standalone EMS here, not a piggyback. You have full control of every aspect of your engine management system. You have full control to tune your engine to perfection. You have full control to blow a rod through the block. You have full control. That should scare some people, and they should let others help them. That's why there is a tuning profession. Most people don't know how to properly tune a car on a dyno. Some 'tuners' don't either unfortunately. Beware of anyone who wants you to have a knock sensor they can 'bounce' it off of and then back off the timing a bit. That's bad news.

Most people should however be able to read a bit and understand how to adjust your idle AFRs based on the MSPNP manual and MS1 Extra manuals included with the product. They explain everything in plenty of detail. Once you've read all of that and understand it fairly well, ask a question or two. I'm out here every day, glad to answer questions.

I gotcha. Probably gonna stick with the AFPR with band-aids for a bit.

I see the advantages to the MS, but at the same time with more power comes more responsibility.