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Old 08-26-2007, 03:08 PM   #21
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Yeah i was worried about the same thing hustler but IT is realy engenius. the changes the take effect and if you like them then you can burn them in IE saving them or if they suck you can not burn them. Essentialy going back to the last time you burned to the ecu. The MSQ's are so small most of us have 20-30 detailing our tunning progress anyway. I know i always throw down any new map under a new name to keep track if i do something wrong.
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Old 08-26-2007, 04:19 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by magnamx-5 View Post
Yeah i was worried about the same thing hustler but IT is realy engenius. the changes the take effect and if you like them then you can burn them in IE saving them or if they suck you can not burn them. Essentialy going back to the last time you burned to the ecu. The MSQ's are so small most of us have 20-30 detailing our tunning progress anyway. I know i always throw down any new map under a new name to keep track if i do something wrong.
Exactly-- when I tune a car I number the maps as well. Of course they are time stamped, but once I give them descriptive names it gets them out of order, if I number them I can follow it with a descriptive name and keep track of progress.

Something like:

1- Base map as driven into the shop.msq
2- Rescaled tables and adjusted constants.msq
3- Fully dialed in VE at all loads up to 4600rpm.msq
4- Scaled VE out above 4600rpm at lower loads.msq
5- Fully dialed in ignition at all loads up to 4600rpm.msq
6- Scaled ignition out above 4600rpm at lower loads.msq
7- Dialed in Accell Enrichments.msq
8- EBC tuning 1.msq
9- EBC tuning 2.msq
10- EBC tuning 3.msq
11- Fine tuning WOT 1.msq
12- Fine tuning WOT 2.msq
13- Fine tuning WOT 3.msq
14- Fine tuning WOT 4.msq
15- Fine tuning WOT 5.msq
16- Final map 247whp 236wtq.msq

Makes life nice and easy if I need to go back at any point, everything stays in order, and you can see the progression of how to go through the tuning process. Notice WOT ramp runs are last...
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Old 08-26-2007, 06:14 PM   #23
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yeah the aeromotive apfr is a 1:1 ratio. havent got a chance to do anything to the car yet, since it is still sitting at my friends shop. lets hope i get this thing fiqured out if not. if not, i might have to see if jerry would like a paid vacation to ny. so far my current setup on the car is a greddy turbo kit, racing mazda downpipe, custom plumbed ebay ic, aeromotive 1:1 apfr, duel feed fuel rail, walboro fuel pump, rc 550cc injectors, aem wideband, and the mspnp. if any one aroud the nyc area that has experience with the mspnp want to give me a helping hand, all is welcome.
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Old 08-26-2007, 07:29 PM   #24
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I think we'll get it nailed man... though NY could be nice j/k
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Old 08-30-2007, 12:02 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by kingred View Post
i am running a greddy kit with the maf delete. currently running 330 injectors. on start up i need to keep gaing the car in order to get it to crank over. after it does crank over i need to keep reving the car in order to prevent it from stalling out.


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yeah the aeromotive apfr is a 1:1 ratio. havent got a chance to do anything to the car yet, since it is still sitting at my friends shop. lets hope i get this thing fiqured out if not. if not, i might have to see if jerry would like a paid vacation to ny. so far my current setup on the car is a greddy turbo kit, racing mazda downpipe, custom plumbed ebay ic, aeromotive 1:1 apfr, duel feed fuel rail, walboro fuel pump, rc 550cc injectors, aem wideband, and the mspnp. if any one aroud the nyc area that has experience with the mspnp want to give me a helping hand, all is welcome.
you running 330's or 550's?
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Old 08-30-2007, 09:45 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by FoundSoul View Post
Exactly-- when I tune a car I number the maps as well. Of course they are time stamped, but once I give them descriptive names it gets them out of order, if I number them I can follow it with a descriptive name and keep track of progress.

Something like:

1- Base map as driven into the shop.msq
2- Rescaled tables and adjusted constants.msq
3- Fully dialed in VE at all loads up to 4600rpm.msq
4- Scaled VE out above 4600rpm at lower loads.msq
5- Fully dialed in ignition at all loads up to 4600rpm.msq
6- Scaled ignition out above 4600rpm at lower loads.msq
7- Dialed in Accell Enrichments.msq
8- EBC tuning 1.msq
9- EBC tuning 2.msq
10- EBC tuning 3.msq
11- Fine tuning WOT 1.msq
12- Fine tuning WOT 2.msq
13- Fine tuning WOT 3.msq
14- Fine tuning WOT 4.msq
15- Fine tuning WOT 5.msq
16- Final map 247whp 236wtq.msq

Makes life nice and easy if I need to go back at any point, everything stays in order, and you can see the progression of how to go through the tuning process. Notice WOT ramp runs are last...
If those file names don't tell me how to tune a car, then I don't know what will.
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Old 08-30-2007, 10:24 AM   #27
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Heh... that was kindof the idea. That's basically how I'd do it on a load bearing dyno. You will likely end up making more runs than that but that list/order will give you the gist of it. There are some principals to understand as a part of tuning still such as how much advance is enough, and how to 'scale out the ve and advance beyond xxxx rpm' appropriately, but that's a bigger conversation.

4600rpm was chosen as it's higher than you'd generally cruise in these cars on the highway. You want to steady state tune up to and a bit higher than where you'll be cruising at, but if you try to steady state tune at higher RPMs you have to stop tuning really frequently due to building up too much heat. And since you get into areas of the map you pretty much never hit anyways (do you cruise at light throttle at 120mph generally?) you often can look at the VE trend up to that point and scale that trend across the table from there. Maybe adding a point or two on top of that scaling, per column, to err on the rich side if anything.

Last edited by FoundSoul; 08-30-2007 at 11:21 AM.
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Old 08-30-2007, 10:27 AM   #28
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How much should I end up paying for tuning? I can't seem to get anyone to do it for less than $600 here in Dallas...which I think is a bit too high.

I don't know if BEGi has a dyno, but if they do I hope they'd cut me a deal since I already gave them $4k.

I can still try to work out a deal out with one of my father's friends, but they probably won't have a steady state dyno.
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Old 08-30-2007, 10:33 AM   #29
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Leaning a hair to the rich side if anything.
poor choice of words.
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Old 08-30-2007, 11:21 AM   #30
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poor choice of words.
True. True.

Fixed
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Old 08-30-2007, 11:28 AM   #31
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When I talked to Corky a while back he told me he used a 'local kids' DynoJet. If I had to guess I'd say it's a standard Inertia-only DynoJet which I wouldn't do any real serious tuning on. Maybe WOT if you play it safe. I'm not sure if that's the only dyno they use or not though as I expect they've done some steady state tuning somewhere, but maybe not-- they are tuning mostly Xede's which are a piggyback so they use the stock ECU's base map, they may not worry much about the middle areas of the map since the base map has them close to begin with.

It's different in different areas. But for steady state tuning in our area it's anywhere from $100 - $250/hr. Out in Cali I know it's closer to the high end of that scale most everywhere. Personally if I get ahold of the dyno I'm trying to nab I'll keep it on the low end of that.

Considering you have a nice base map to start from, I wouldn't expect it to take more than 2-3 hours if the tuner knows the software or is able to pick it up pretty quickly. If he knows the software and the MS well, and is familiar with tuning Miatas, no more than 2. Part of that will be cool down time.

Last edited by FoundSoul; 08-30-2007 at 12:09 PM.
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Old 08-30-2007, 11:41 AM   #32
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Hustler given a 1-2 hour street tune and your previus experience on VW's a 2-3 hour dyno session should square you away. Most dynos run 100 or so $ an hour around here. I hope to god no one pays 600$ to dyno tune there MS sub 600 whp geez.
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Old 08-30-2007, 12:20 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by magnamx-5 View Post
Hustler given a 1-2 hour street tune and your previus experience on VW's a 2-3 hour dyno session should square you away. Most dynos run 100 or so $ an hour around here. I hope to god no one pays 600$ to dyno tune there MS sub 600 whp geez.
Well there aren't many load bearing dynos in dallas, and the two I called want $600 or so.

I know a guy with an inertia dyno that is a pretty good tuner who will do it cheaper...but I really thought the load bearing dyno tuning would happen much faster than 4 hours. I told them I'd bring the car with cold-start ready to go, and I just want enrichments, knock retard, spark, and fuel dialed in...one came back with $600, the other came back with $900.

I wonder how much of the 4 hour estimate is alotted for sitting on the rollers, collecting cash?
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Old 08-30-2007, 12:32 PM   #34
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Everyone here has seen people spend $500 on an exhaust system to pickup maybe 6whp. Or $200 on an intake for 2-3whp.

You've got the tool-- it needs the proper tune. Without it, it's just a tool sitting in the toolbox not being used to it's potential.

I don't know these tuners, I don't know if they will take good care of you and knock this thing out, or if they'll dork around with it for a couple hours and then try to sell you an AEM. But if they know tuning, and they take a few minutes to learn the software, and they have a proper load bearing dyno.... you've never felt your car run better.

Like I said, I can't speak for these tuner's skills-- I don't even know who they are. But what I can speak for is a good tune, a proper tune covering the tables in full, which only a steady state dyno can accomplish (no matter what an inertia dyno owner tells you about 'bumping the brake' -bullcrap-). And that proper tune.... it's worth the money.

$900 is on the high side in our area-- some would pay it gladly to a reputable tuner with a good dyno though. $600, that's more than some, but not that bad really. Think about this. That steady state dyno cost that shop owner AT LEAST DOUBLE what that inertia dyno cost they other guy, maybe triple, and in theory at least he bought it so he could do the job right for you. They're also a bit more complex to run... it's not just 'push the green button to go, and the red button to stop', you have to have a operator with at least half a brain.

That's why you see so many crappy inertia dyno's-- they're cheap and most people don't know any better.
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Old 08-30-2007, 12:39 PM   #35
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I guess since its going to cost me a ******* grand to get this **** tuned (I know I'm going to get fucked on this) I should send my mspnp back to DIY and get it wired up for tps and mapdaddy.
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Old 08-30-2007, 12:57 PM   #36
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Do the shops you talked to know that it's got a solid base map on it? Have they tuned on MS before?

It really shouldn't take more than 2-3 hours.

They'd want to steady state in the whole fuel table up to say 4600rpms ish, which shouldn't take more than an hour, and likely much less.

Then they scale out VE above that 4600rpm point that you quick steady state tuning at.

If you're running pump 93 they don't need to touch timing under 100kpa, just steady state it above 100kpa up to maybe 4600rpm which won't take long at all.

Then on to ramp runs for WOT tuning. Maybe starting at low boost and increasing it depending on your goals. This can go somewhat quick, but if you want to play with a manual boost controller tuning at different levels of boost, or tune EBC, it will take longer as you're playing with more variables.

2-3 hrs without EBC. Max 4 hours with EBC I'd think.

Again-- this is assuming they know the software and they're not fumbling through it.
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Old 08-30-2007, 01:03 PM   #37
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Jerry your looking at buying a steady state dyno?
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Old 08-30-2007, 01:07 PM   #38
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I'm weighing out the possibility-- they are crazy expensive though and though I wouldn't be looking to get into the full-time commercial tuning business I'd need it to at least pay for it's monthly payments so I'd need to do some...

I'm thinking DynaPack... Just trying to weigh out if it's a good financial decision right now. I've got people that need to tune cars pretty regularly, and I have our own shop needs pretty regularly too. So it seems like I could cover the costs with the people needing a tune around here, but there are a couple challenges there-- one of which is we don't have anyone else here yet that has done much hands on dyno tuning so I'd have to train someone up before we could do too much as though I love it I can't be out there all the time as someone's got to keep the wheels turning in here .

We'll see how it works out...
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Old 08-30-2007, 01:11 PM   #39
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I sure hope he is because that would be great. I'd have no problem driving down to ATL to get my car tuned.
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Old 08-30-2007, 01:14 PM   #40
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Yeah for not assrageous rates and someone who knows what they are doing. **** get a group run together.
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