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Old 08-12-2012, 11:24 PM   #1
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Default MS driving me to drink

So here is the background, I recently got my car all buttoned back up after building the engine and installing the turbo parts. My setup is '99 engine, ebay rods, supertech 8.6:1, Five-O 1000cc, Reverent MS2V3, LC-1. I'm having a hell of a time getting it to run.

I was originally going to use RX-7 550s and thats the info I gave Rev months and months ago. I ended going with the 1000cc instead. I tried the original base map and changed the req fuel to the new calculations and after adding a bunch of fuel in the lower left finally got it to start and run for 30 seconds or so but it was rough and rich. Unfortunately I didn't log it. I emailed Rev for advice and he sent me a new base map today with better settings.

I still had a difficult time trying to start the car but finally got it to start after numerous attempts but it died quickly a couple of times and then didn't want to restart. I started playing around with adding more fuel to the lower left area of the table again like with the original tune and got it to run for the longest time yet but it was running pretty rich again and oscillating wildly. The thing doesn't want start without adding fuel but it runs too rich when it actually starts so I'm not sure what to do at this point.

I attached the log of the first start and the graph of the 2nd start (the file is too large on the 2nd to post the whole msl, can't figure out how to shorten it).

I also attached 2 msq's, the first base map is the original and the 2nd is the current one Rev sent me today. The temperatures look all out of whack to me on the new one because of a C* and and F* conflict and I asked Rev about them but he said its no big deal. The temp values of all the startup/crank tables don't seem right compared with the original tune but I have to trust his opinion.

I'd appreciate any advice or feedback as I'm getting really frustrated with this thing. My MS1PNP on my old '94 was cake for me to get going and I was expecting this to be similar. :(
Attached Thumbnails
MS driving me to drink-megalog-2nd-start.jpg  
Attached Files
File Type: msl 2012-08-12_16.59.06.msl (1.01 MB, 105 views)
File Type: msq original base.msq (84.5 KB, 71 views)
File Type: msq new base.msq (84.1 KB, 65 views)
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Old 08-13-2012, 03:04 AM   #2
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Can you confirm your new injectors are high-impedance? Please measure with a multimeter.
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Old 08-13-2012, 01:12 PM   #3
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I just measured and got 13 so they are high.
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Old 08-13-2012, 01:20 PM   #4
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1180cc injectors are going to be tricky, no doubt. Not your garden variety RX7/RX8 injectors.

Here's a quick way to help you get to at least get a stable idle:

1) Disconnect your idle valve
2) Open up the bypass screw to get a mechanical idle
3) Start the car and let it warmup fully. Once warm, change the VE cells that affect the idle so that you get about 14-14.2 AFR, no leaner than that (the injectors are too big for 14.7 on pump gas). Change them so that all 4 cells have the same value.
4) Once you do that, your idle should be stable and it really shouldn't stink gas.
5) Reconnect the idle valve and slowly rescrew the bypass valve until you hit your target RPM.
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Old 08-13-2012, 04:39 PM   #5
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Alright I disconnected the valve and opened up the bypass screw 4 turns and it fired right up on the first crank. Other than being pretty rich it ran very well which is a relief since its a fresh build (and my first ever). I let it warm up fully and then started decreasing the idle VE cells. I did my first cut by 10 and the AFR went from 10.6 to 12.0. I did the second cut also by 10 but I guess it was too much and the car stalled. I increased the values back to the first cut but the car wouldn't restart so I couldn't continue. I'll keep trying to restart it as it cools down so I can continue the process. Thanks for the great tips!

PS: here is an example of why I'm still worried about the temp conversion. It looks like its not even on the curve anymore b/c of the difference:

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Old 08-13-2012, 04:41 PM   #6
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I see. We'll schedule a firmware update to fix this and some other issues.
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Old 08-13-2012, 04:47 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by paNX2K&SE-R View Post
MS driving me to drink
sounds like a good time?

can you idle the car by giving it a bit of throttle? every time I had issues starting i was able to keep the car running by revving it.

also sticking a credit card in between the throttle bracket and stopper is a trick i commonly use to prevent the car from dying at idle. gives just enough air to keep the RPMs high.
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Old 08-13-2012, 04:48 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by soviet View Post
also sticking a credit card in between the throttle
Your car is a bitch. Bitches love credit cards.
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Old 08-13-2012, 04:49 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by paNX2K&SE-R View Post
The values in the temperature cells are in celcius, but TS thinks they are in fact farenheit - do a manual conversion.
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Old 08-13-2012, 04:51 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by paNX2K&SE-R View Post
PS: here is an example of why I'm still worried about the temp conversion. It looks like its not even on the curve anymore b/c of the difference:

I get this for some of my tables as well. Even though it says C in some places, if you look where it's at during the datalog it's either ~175F, or ~175C, which makes no sense.
Just extend out the coolant values to 190 or so, and put in WUE values that give the A:F ratios you're wanting to land within.
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Old 08-13-2012, 05:17 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reverant View Post
I see. We'll schedule a firmware update to fix this and some other issues.
Cool.

Quote:
Originally Posted by soviet View Post
sounds like a good time?

can you idle the car by giving it a bit of throttle? every time I had issues starting i was able to keep the car running by revving it.

also sticking a credit card in between the throttle bracket and stopper is a trick i commonly use to prevent the car from dying at idle. gives just enough air to keep the RPMs high.
Its going to be a good time once I get it right heh. I tried to give it some throttle but it doesn't help. Thanks for the cc tip, I think the effect would pretty similar to the bypass screw.

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The values in the temperature cells are in celcius, but TS thinks they are in fact farenheit - do a manual conversion.
Ok will do.
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Old 08-13-2012, 07:27 PM   #12
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Ok I went back and changed all the temps to F. After it cooled a bit I was able to get it started again and it ran really rough and rather lean for a bit but it did smooth out again (see first log). After letting it warm up again I plugged the idle valve back in and changed the VE table to get it to 14.2ish and then started turning the manual idle screw. I guess I ended up turning it a little too much because it stalled and then it was back to the old no restart thing. I'll let it cool again and then try later.
Attached Files
File Type: msl adjusting and stall.msl (1.49 MB, 107 views)
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Old 08-13-2012, 08:00 PM   #13
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Have you confirmed the temperature readings for the coolant and air in the TS make sense? Air being around ambient and cold engine being close to air. Just a check I always like to do on a new setup!
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Old 08-13-2012, 09:30 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bcrx7 View Post
Have you confirmed the temperature readings for the coolant and air in the TS make sense? Air being around ambient and cold engine being close to air. Just a check I always like to do on a new setup!
Yes they are both close to ambient when cold.

Ok I just went out and tried it again. It was really hard to start again and it ran rough until the CLT hit 150* and then it smoothed out nicely.

I waited until it was warmed up and then tuned the VE in idle to be right around 14:1 and then plugged in the idle valve. Before I really got a chance to turn the manual idle screw the fan kicked on and then engine started running rougher and when I looked back in the cockpit the AFRs were into the 15s and 16s and then it dies. Of course it didn't want to restart after that.
Attached Files
File Type: msl 2012-08-13_19.47.27.msl (1.17 MB, 74 views)
File Type: msl 2012-08-13_19.59.17.msl (1.23 MB, 264 views)
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Old 08-14-2012, 10:06 PM   #15
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So after the same thing happened again today as in the previous post. I'm pretty much grasping at straws at this point so I decided to pull the 1000cc injectors out and put my stock ones in. I set the req fuel to 13.4 and started the same procedure as I've been doing.

I got pretty much the same result. It starts with some difficulty, runs rough for a little, smooths out and runs great, warms up to operating temp, I get the AFRs to mid 14s, when fan starts cycling on/off AFRs get leaner then rebound, plug in idle valve, go to adjust the manual idle screw and then the fans come on, it leans out and then dies. Not able to restart when hot.
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Old 08-14-2012, 11:30 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by paNX2K&SE-R View Post
Not able to restart when hot.
Fix your cranking pulsewidth table. You've got a PW% of 45 at 90F+
For reference, here's mine with stock injectors:
https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...1&d=1344997801

Same deal with your Warmup Enrichment Curve, you're asking for no enrichment at ~68+ degrees F. Here's mine for reference:
https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...1&d=1344997801

Dunno why most of your tables are in C instead of F, but just assume they're F and fix 'em.
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MS driving me to drink-crankingpw.jpg   MS driving me to drink-warmupenrichment.jpg  
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Old 08-15-2012, 09:46 PM   #17
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Holy crap I actually made some progress today! Thanks for the tip SJP0tato I was able to finally get it to start when hot after a stall! I had to increase my warm up enrichment all the way to 180 but hey it works so what can I do.

I can now get it to idle at 850-900 after its warmed up and have the idle valve connected. It will occasionally get lean and stall when load is added i.e. the cooling fan comes on. I can get the AFRs into the high 13s/low 14s but its not reliable there yet and more prone to stall with load.

I'll post my latest log and msq.
Attached Files
File Type: msl 2012-08-15_17.26.57.msl (1.27 MB, 84 views)
File Type: msq Best yet.msq (84.1 KB, 85 views)
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Old 08-16-2012, 09:45 PM   #18
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Ok I have a big update. Dimitris took control of my computer today and loaded up new firmware and a new tune. Unfortunately it was still not running right despite his valiant attempts at manipulating settings and tables etc. Something was just not right with the thing. No matter what he did it would stall under load and randomly here and there. He finally had me disconnect the map line and then it would start and run without dying. Dimitris came to the conclusion that the map sensor was bad and it definitely made sense. He pointed me to the correct one on digikey and I ordered it. I asked him how many of the sensors did he ever see go bad and he replied that he'd never seen it before. Hmm.

So fast forward to a couple hours later when the wife and I were at a Mexican place sipping some 22oz margaritas on the rocks when it hit me. What if the place I hooked the map line to was screwy or there was a problem with the line? I had it hooked to an extra port on the under side of the intake mani towards the firewall. It used to hook up the the egr system or something when the car was stock. I figured what the hell I'll try using a different port when I get home. Sure enough when I ran a new vac line to a different port and it ran much better and didn't want to stall all the time like it did before. Just for shyts and giggles I hooked a vac pump up inside the car to the original line and it held vacuum which it shouldn't do if it was just a line to an open port in the intake mani I wouldn't think.

Anyway Dimitris when you wake up and read this I hope your not mad lol . I wouldn't have figured this out for at least another week of messing around with it myself. Thanks again for the time and effort you put in helping me today.


So now I need to figure out why I have a random misfire and lean condition on occasion at idle. Time to start searching threads again heh.
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Old 08-17-2012, 08:40 AM   #19
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Yeah it was a couple of hours that really got me thinking how much I've missed all these years, not being a drunk and all. Booze for the win.

On a more serious note...that was a tough find. The sensor would read 100% with the engine off, would go to 30% with the engine running, but would do so in "steps", like it was digital and not analog.

Now, trying to debug this live, from 5000 miles away, through a laggy, lossy compressed video stream for 2 hours from 10pm until midnight, and drinking suddenly does seem a viable option.
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Old 08-24-2012, 10:31 PM   #20
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I had another frustrating week messing around with the car. My new 650cc FIC injectors arrived so I removed the stockers again and installed the new ones. Of course I had to change the req_fuel and mess with some settings to dial them in. It would idle pretty well most of the time but there was a light random misfire that was driving me crazy. When engine load increased like when the fans came on or turning the steering wheel the misfire was pretty pronounced. I rechecked everything again and couldn't find any issues with connections or megasquirt settings. I drove around the block and it misfired like crazy on inclines and smoothed out a little on flat and going downhill.

I thought back to when Dimitris was helping me last week and we were troubleshooting he had me pull the plugs out of the engine and then fired the coils while I watched them. One set had nice loud snaps with good spark and on the other set the snaps were much softer and the spark was tiny and weak. I had a feeling that a weak coil was causing my misfire trouble. Then it dawned on me that I had purchased a set of COPS from Savington 3 years ago for my '94 turbo but never got around to installing them. I figured what the hell so I dug them up and installed them. Holy crap what a difference. It was smooth like butter at idle no matter the load. Next I drove it around the block and it was night and day, so smooth and no misfires at all. Eureka I think I've finally solved the last of my problems with this thing! Tomorrow I'm going to do some autotuning and logging so I can finally finish breaking the engine in the way its supposed to be done.

Thanks again for everyone who gave me suggestions when I was trying to figure it out.
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