MS1 + MS2 + Symtech service = no start
 

I bought the MS2 upgrade service (and MS-II daughtercard) from Symtech Labs.

It took around two weeks from ship-out to receipt of upgraded unit, and they were pretty communicative pre-sale and to update of order status & shipment.

After installing the MS (DB-37, MAP and USB->Serial adapter), i loaded up TunerStudio.

My 1st issue is that i'm a moron. 2nd issue is that i have no real clue how to proceed.

Not knowing what kind of MSQ the MS was loaded with I downloaded a DIYPNP MSQ for a miata w/460cc injectors, gmiat, no MAF (perfect fit for my setup).

After disabling boost control (was giving a boost control pin conflict error), i was able to see RPMs (vs 65535). I then calibrated the TPS, CLT and IAT sensors.

I figured at this point the car should more or less start, but no luck. I tried varying the cranking pulsewidths from less than half of default to over double at around the relevant temperature (approx 45*F), but no luck..

it would crank a bit, then bog, then crank, then bog, then crank, etc. I also tried advancing the cranking ignition timing up to 20 degrees, which created intake popping, then back down to 5 degrees..

Symtech was aware of the make and model (91 miata), so i assume they made all the miata specific mods, but i am not good w/electronics, which is why i shipped out my MS in the 1st place.

Any ideas on what could cause it to just turn over but not catch?

I've been reading a bit more and my next step will be to check my crank timing between the MS and the car.. I didn't think of this as i had already been running MS-I, i figured it would be the same.

I noticed that MS-I has a different concept for the ignition 'offset' vs MS-II.. In MS-I i have a value of 77* or so.

What do you MS2 users have in the 'trigger wizard' field? ( i assume that's the corresponding field in MS-II speak)

Spark output could be wired backwards. MS-II should be the opposite of how most miata people build an MS-I.

Yeah try swopping the leads between the two coilpacks.

who the fuck is symtech?

if it cranks and then bogs chances are the ignition outputs are reversed. the DIYPNP map is based around inverted spark, was your MS-I setup the same?

I'm guessing these dudes?

LOL Braineack,u built my MS, I don't really know much aboutt the internals.

Symtechlabs.com appears to be a guy like you (Scott), but he built a website to offer his services.

I think you guys are right though, as I got the response back from him that he didn't 'alter the spark output'.

As far as swapping the leads between the coilpacks, which two am I swapping? I have COPS,can I just swap which oil goes on which cylinder?

still wasted spark?

SO what was on 2&3 now goes on 1&4 and vis versa.

for your COPS you can just swop the trigger wires, but would obviously be an easier job if you were running OEM ignition

I'm still running wasted spark, I bought a COP harness from railz which connects to the ignitor harness.

So, to be clear, i shouldn't alter anything on the MS board, just rather swap the COPs as described in your post?

Swap Cylinder 2 and Cylinder 1
Swap Cylinder 3 and Cylinder 4

You can do either it's up to you they both do the same thing!

Me personally I'd change the board, depends how confident you feel.

swap the green/white and brown wires on the harness. (1g & 1h)
or swap the two wires coming off the LEDs inside the box.
or swap #1&4 coils with #2&3

or that could not be the issue at all and they didnt upgrade the tach input mods correctly...but you said you are seeing rpms right? you do need to reverse the spark channels when going from MSI to MSII, they probably just failed to do that.

I'd love to change it on the board, but i spent a few minutes looking at the various diagrams i've found and none seem to correspond to what i'm seeing on my board.

Are there wires connecting point A to point B that i need to swap?

On the bottom of my MS i have this:

IGN -> LED nearest DB9
IAC2B to LED farthest from DB9
IAC2A to JS4
IAC1B to middle LED
IAC1A to JS10(ign), split to resistor ending at +5V on proto area

swap the wires on IGN and IAC2B. they should cross now, do they?

brain, didn't see your reply before posting mine.. i will try all of the things in your post, probably in reverse order :)

swapping the coils will be the easy first check. if thay lets it run, then you can go back in later and swap the output wires at the harness and put the coils back in teh proper order.

IGN goes to 1 LED, IAC2B goes to other LED.

PRESENTLY (have not swapped yet), they do NOT cross.

If i read your post correctly, after swapping, they should cross.

I will try that now, though the wire is kinda short, not sure if i can swap easily at the side without the resistor.. and my soldering sucks so i'm scared to try the side near leds.

I'll try soldering now.. i already have the MS out of the car and disassembled so i may as well do it.

sounds like that's the issue:

http://www.boostedmiata.com/gallery2..._0003_mods.jpg

see yellow wires.


also, do they connect into the proto area like that or directly to the LED? that determines how to setting the spark output mode in your MSQ.

mine connect directly to the LEDs, not to proto area. I am soldering now!

make sure on your map, that the spark output is set to normal, not inverted.

Thanks for all the help Brain.

Before i make the change in the map -- i should mention that ALSO connected to the LEDs are resistors (on the back, same side as the wires). On the flip side, they appear to connect to R24 and R28.. Does that matter or is "normal" still the right choice?

Also i'm looking at that picture you posted. My wires now look like the yellow ones you pointed out, but i don't some of the others:

e.g.:
my tachselect goes to C30, not XG1

i don't have a jump from tsel to optout

no 5V to C30 (but tachselect goes there..?)

yes, with your configuration make sure spark output is set to normal, not inverted.


they might have built your tach input circuit different. were you getting RPMs in Tuner Studio?

The guy says he didn't touch any "external wiring", so i would assume that the tach circuit is unchanged.

no, because what you described is not how I had the input mods for MS-I, he just didnt move your spark outputs cause he probably didnt know they get reversed. you litterally just swapped coilA with coilB, MS-II output them in reverse of that of MS-I

You guys are awesome.

I was able to swap the wires and the car started right up (more or less).

The idle was complete shit and i had to keep blipping the throttle to avoid stalling.

I set the timing to 10, used the trigger wizard and timing gun to dial it in.

Question:

1) Is 45.5* in "Trigger Angle / Offset (deg)" a reasonable value? I had it at 77 in MS-I, so i find it odd that it's so different here unless it's supposed to be different?

2) Is this correct: I have ignition capture on "falling edge", spark output "going low (normal)".

3) maybe it's because the car sat for two weeks and then was cranked for a good while, but it's making some horrible clicking.. sounds like lifter noise but louder than i've ever heard before.

4) it wants to stall whenever i edit any settings, even things like accel enrichment low rpm..?

Sorry for all the n00b questions, but it's like starting all over again.
Anyways, thanks for all the help again -- now it's time to tune the whole damn thing all over again!

I've made some progress..

1) Something was weird with that 45.5*... I drove the car to work 2 days ago, and it was driveable but not good... Exhaust was too loud (?) i built boost earlier than ever but the car felt crappy under load. I re-checked timing that night and it was way off..? I jumped TEN to GND in the diag box, set timing table to FIXED @ 10, and re-ran the wizard to adjust to indicated 10 on the pulley. It was off by like 14 degrees overly advanced.. What's super strange is that now my trigger angle offset value is 2*, which is not 14 less than 45.5... so i FAIL at understanding.

2) I'll go with 'yes'.

3) Lifter noise went away with a few miles of driving.. Idling for half an hour didn't help, but driving fixed it in no time.

4) This is still annoying and more noticeable than with MS-1 (especially when start/stopping VE Analyze Live and exiting some menus), but is improved to a degree now that timing is correct.

-------

Two basic issues remain that I NEVER noticed with MS-I.

1) RESETs (?) Not ALL the time, but fairly regularly when under any kind of boost over 2 or 3 PSI. It doesn't seem to affect drivability, the only reason i notice is because Tuner Studio complains about it.

2) runs on 2 cylinders sometimes.. this seems to be related to the harness (?) but i don't understand how / why because the harness was fine for a long time with MS-I, and upon inspection of the DB37 connector all the solder joints seem to be in good shape, no wires touching.. This problem appears out of nowhere and usually would last until i touch or tap the MS near the connector. Note: I *did* re-solder the ignition outputs myself and i suck at soldering, but the connections seem OK to me and the wires are on the board solidly.

PLEASE help me resolve these stupid little problems!

cold solder joint, redo you soldering, i bet you can pull one of the wires right off.

post a log of the reset.

I re-did the ignition wires on the MS, and also checked the harness. By the time i pulled out the harness from the car for inspection several of the wires broke off at the car side connector.

I did my best to re-solder everything (TPS, Ground, and one of the injector wires (expains the 2 cylinder operation)).

I went for a drive and it's even worse now.. resets are quite frequent now, pretty much every time you hit boost, and even in neutral if you rev it up a bit..

Any tips on achieving a good solder joint??

I confirmed today that I do in fact suck at soldering. Two of the recently 'fixed' joints broke again.

ha! they should be shiny like the rest of my joints...if they are dull, they wont hold.

Old copper wiring is no good if your try to solder on it. The corrosion that builds on the copper resists being soldered. Try to gently scrape the copper strands, that will help a bit.

Also use leaded solder. It's much easier to work with than the politically correct lead free stuff.