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Old 02-20-2012, 09:56 PM   #1
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Default Ms2 diy maps?

I finished building my ms2 and can't find a basemap for a ms2 anywhere. My car is a stock 96. There's a spot for em on the wiki but none posted. If someone wouldn't mind sharing your msq I would really appreciate it!
Also I'm running ms2 extra 3.2.1 if that matters. Thanks!
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Old 02-21-2012, 06:06 AM   #2
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Old 02-21-2012, 10:28 AM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jpopsbronco View Post
I finished building my ms2 and can't find a basemap for a ms2 anywhere. My car is a stock 96. There's a spot for em on the wiki but none posted. If someone wouldn't mind sharing your msq I would really appreciate it!
Also I'm running ms2 extra 3.2.1 if that matters. Thanks!
There's a reason for that. Most will just plug in anyone's map and expect it to work. I include myself in this group when I was first here in this site. IF you read and listen, then you will quickly learn it is easier to set some time aside to tune each component from scratch.

The public basemaps are a starting point that will work on a lot of vehicles, but not all. It depends how close your setup is to the test vehicle. It is meant to not blow up you car if you do decide to use it indefinitely.

Do not use someone else fuel table. There is too much going on in a fuel table with corrections. Just use VE analyze. However, before you start getting into VE analyze you need to know how all of the corrections in tunerstudio work, and how they will affect your tune. i.e. setup battery voltage correction, MAT correction, injector deadtime, lag factors, AE, EAE, etc. Otherwise you will have 10x the amount of VEanalyze tuning sessions redoing your fuel map. (You will actually use VE analyze initially with no AE EAE actually, then tune EAE with no AE, then add in AE, then run VEanalyze again)

IF you insist on running someone else spark table, then I would recommend braieacks with a few degrees pulled out as a starting point. I believe his is pretty safe. I started with his, and used my det cans to adjust timing in boost. (I ended up pulling a little timing)

Remember, if your base timing is set incorrectly, then all of your timing values mean ----. Plugging in someone else table could lead to a broke motor.
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Old 02-21-2012, 01:05 PM   #4
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I appreciate the help
After more searching I found a couple msq's and I'm just looking for a first start msq on a totally stock miata, not too worried about blowing it up(I think you have to TRY to destroy one of these motors if na lol). Thanks for the links and info, I will definitely do much more research in the tuning department after I get her running!
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Old 02-21-2012, 01:32 PM   #5
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No problem. I waisted money on the dyno because I didn't fully understand all of the enrichment. Fun spending money, then going back and re-tuning after changing a bunch of settings :( The good news is that you can get a great tune without hitting the dyno.
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Old 02-21-2012, 02:02 PM   #6
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Yeah, I already bought tunerstudio/mlv when I was messing with a ms1, can't wait to start tinkering around! Can you make any recommendations for the first few days of rough tuning, as far as AE, WE, ect? (mostly what setting to mess with?)
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Old 02-21-2012, 02:24 PM   #7
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I would first start with battery voltage and MAT correction. I have MAT correction value set to 50%. Just start a datalog from when your car is cold and run it until the air temp sensor stops increasing. Look at Gair. You want to set your table to negate this correction. If Gair is 102% you want the MAT correction table at that temp to be -2. Look up the dead time for your injectors. Turn off AE and EAE. Don't autotune below ~ 165 CLT or while WUE is still on. Set your AFR targets. Make sure the wideband is calibrated correctly. I like to try autotuning at similar ambient temps.

Once you spend a good while autotuning trying to hit all of your cells, then you want to start tuning EAE (do a search, and you'll find a good thread on it). Tune by watching the wideband, not via logs. Note that you need to initially tune this at 3000 rpm, then adjust the rpm curve. Autotune again, and you will notice values change as the software is taking into account the extra enrichment. Then add in AE. Forget the wideband values and logs when tuning AE. You can easily "feel" when AE is right and wrong. snappy acceleration good. Stumble, hesitation, etc bad. Autotune again. You will probably notice the biggest change in off idle cells. the large peaks should start to shrink.
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Old 02-22-2012, 03:00 PM   #8
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Thanks a ton!! have began my tuning quest
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Old 02-22-2012, 10:43 PM   #9
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djp0632, some really awesome contributions to this thread. You've opened my eyes to a few things and I realize that I've probably wasted some time on VE Analyze thus far. The car is running good but I want it to run like stock.

Can you explain the battery voltage correction? I did some searches on msextra.com and don't think I found what you are talking about. (is it the injector dwell battery correction?)
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Old 02-22-2012, 11:48 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by QWKDTSN View Post
djp0632, some really awesome contributions to this thread. You've opened my eyes to a few things and I realize that I've probably wasted some time on VE Analyze thus far. The car is running good but I want it to run like stock.

Can you explain the battery voltage correction? I did some searches on msextra.com and don't think I found what you are talking about. (is it the injector dwell battery correction?)
I believe that is the battery correction I am talking about. I don't have tunerstudio open. There is also a battery correction for the spark dwell iirc. The voltage drop table has been tested and posted somewhere on this forum. ( I can't remember if it is for COPs though)

Each injector manufacturer will have a deadtime at a stated value, then this value will change with a change in voltage. Non-linear voltage correction might be what it is called. I called RC and they gave it to me.

Idle is going to be the biggest hurdle with MS to get a car that runs like stock. A lot of progress has been made over on msextra.com. I changed from a diypnp to ms3 so I am unsure of the latest changes, but last I heard they had the PID working pretty solidly.

Do a search on here for AE, and EAE. There were a couple of good threads on how to tune EAE appropriately. Unfortunately the msextra manual was kinda useless for this. However, the manual is pretty good for explaining the closed loop idle parameters.

Closed loop idle is where "everyone's settings are different" is true x10. You can get away with a spark table, and even a fuel table to some degree if you scale it to your injectors, but closed loop idle is sooooooo dependent on the individual car, that it isn't even worth using someone else tune as a starting point. (other than things like the amount of time for the algorithm to start, etc)

Don't start tuning closed loop until you set your idle bleed screw properly.

Zero the PID values and begin. Do a search for closed loop idle. I believe there is a better method for tuning the PID on this forum. The msextra manual was really good for learning what each parameter is.

You also want to spend some time on the startup tables, ASE, WUE. ASE taper. Your car can start and run like ---- for a few seconds or minutes and then be fine if your WUE is good, but ASE and ASE taper aren't good. A good indicator is to watch your afr gauge right after startup. If it's really rich or lean, then drastically changes after 30s to 120s, then chances are your ASE is off, vice versa if good right after startup, but then AFR goes to turd. (probably WUE needs to be tweeked)

I like to datalog from a cold start a few times doing nothing but let it idle. Problem is, you get 1, maybe to shots at this per day. This way you can see all of the ASE, WUE, and how they affect the AFR. Watch for when they cut out, etc. Then adjust towards your afr target.

Some cars like to idle with more fuel than others. Forcing it to idle lean may only cause headaches. At one point my car really like to idle with an AFR in the 13s. It pissed me off because I wanted to idle a 14.7.

Alright, I'm tired of rambling, and I'm sure everyone is tired of reading.
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Old 02-23-2012, 12:56 AM   #11
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I meant spark dwell battery correction, not injector... had injectors on the mind for some reason.

Thanks again for taking the time to post, I appreciate it. Will re-read a couple of times and do some more research.

The idle screw is kind of a thorn in my side right now, because I couldn't figure out how to raise my idle with the software, so I tweaked the screw until it idled at 1000 RPM and then adjusted my VE table for about 14.6-14.8:1 AFR. Since then I have made some additional adjustments and at this point I realize I likely should have just left it where it was!

How do you recommend setting the bleed screw? I know how to set it with the OEM ECU, but there are so many variables with the MS that I'm not quite sure how to be sure it's set right.

By the way, I was using a closed loop idle but went back to PWM Warmup to simplify things for the time being.
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Old 02-23-2012, 11:10 AM   #12
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Im running in parallel with the stock computer and its only my second day tuning this baby but my warm idle is pretty much spot on already and it idles at least as well as it didi on the stock computer now at about 14.2/.5:1 ))
Thanks again djp0623, you've been a huge help. Feel to post any other tips you have

one question, I can't figure out how to turn off ae... I know how to change it from map based to tps based or that ratio but I didn't see anywhere where I could just turn it off
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Old 02-23-2012, 02:40 PM   #13
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I believe you want to set your idle to "warmup only" Then once the car is warm adjust the bleed screw until you get an idle of 750-950rpm. You will know where your car likes it best.

You then want to run the idle valve test to see the range at which your rpm adjusts as you increase and decrease valve steps. You will use these as your max and min IAC steps in closed loop. The range for the 1.6 valve on MS2 I thin is in the neighborhood of 25 to 65 iirc. Id start at something like 40 and decrease until there is not "large" rpm change. Then repeat the process accept increasing the steps.

To turn off AE just set the TPS and MAP thresholds to 1000. This will keep if from ever activating. Remember, while autotuning without AE, try to not make really quick throttle jabs. You don't want autotune trying to compensate for no AE. (It will, but you can minimize it) Plus, it will get you used to manipulating the throttle very slowly for tuning EAE.
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Old 02-23-2012, 08:50 PM   #14
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ok, learning. I'm pretty impressed as it drives pretty well without any AE lol. I'm seeing upwards of 130*F at idle mat when it sits and it goes lean and then again on startup. I'm searching more but for tuning the mat correction was I just supposed to do the value in the zone where it leveled off or everywhere past that? I ended up with like 0 0 3 5 6 6. Should it just be 0 0 3 0 0 0?(in mat corrections table).
I'm about to search more so I'll update if I find the answer thanks again

Also for when I go turbo and change mat location/tempurature changes will I have to retune this? Does changing the table affect my VE table?
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Old 02-23-2012, 09:31 PM   #15
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The problem with MAT correction is that it is going to try to pull full when the temp rises. You do not want this while in boost.

Imagine if you first start your car and your MAT reading is 30 degrees. Now look at Gair at 30 degrees. Gair might say 102 or 104% so set your MAT correction table at 30 degrees to be -2% or -4%

When your MAT is at 130F , Gair might be 94% so set your MAT correction table at 130F to 6%.
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Old 02-23-2012, 11:32 PM   #16
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ok perfect, thank you!
I re tuned my ve map because after adjusting mat correction and everything seems to be better(so each mat correction you make the ve table must be slightly adjusted in that area correct?)

also whats considered a stable map? afr vary by .5 max from target afr? or something?
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Old 02-23-2012, 11:55 PM   #17
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Tuning without the MAT table completed is not a good idea. Technically if you have that table dialed in you should be able to autotune at any temp and the VE table not change by more than a point.

I have my table so it completely offsets Gair, i.e. if you look at my datalog at every MAT value Gair says 100% A perfect MAT table would mean that a perfect VE table should not change during autotune no matter what the temp. However, it's not just temp that affects the required fuel at a certain MAP and rpm.

The whole problem with MAT correction is over compensates, and you have to correct this overcompensation.
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Old 02-23-2012, 11:57 PM   #18
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With a diy gm temp sensor located just after the IC, this is what my MAT correction table looks like.


With that said the curve I'm using is:

30F -2%
60F 0%
75F 0%
84F 1%
105F 3%
145F 6%
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Old 02-24-2012, 02:45 PM   #19
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well right now I'm at -1 0 3 5 6 6
That gets me gair 100% most of the time and 99/101 most others. Its been hard to tune lately because During the day ambient temps are at around 85* and night more like 50*, mainly where it gets messed up is idle though. although at idle my iat gets bad heatsoak, going from about 80* up to 134ish if I idle for 5 mins.(I read the heatsoak thread and a couple others) I was thinking of trying a a plastic sensor I got from a buddy, any thoughts?
Again thanks for your help!

My cruise seems to be the same afr at all temps along with most of my other cells, the only time it gets lean is when I slow down/idle.
for the voltage correction someone said see afr, turn on as many electrical things as possible, then adjust voltage till the afrs go back to where they were. My voltage doesn't really change, maybe drops from 14.7 to 14.6 for a sec then comes back up when I hit high beams in datalogs and my afrs change only due to changing cells from different load. Any tips there?
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Old 02-24-2012, 03:33 PM   #20
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At this point you want to tune the spark and fuel around idle. Some cars liek to idle around 10 degrees, and some like 17-18 degrees. The lower you can get it, the more numb it is to small disturbances in the force

If you can tolerate the reduction in resolution at higher rpm and map, then put a 3x3 to 4x4 area around your idle. Warmup the car and adjust the VE around idle until Gve is almost constant as the dot moves around. Make a gauge or something that allows you to see Gve. You won't be able to make all the cells the same thing but watch Gve and AFR. You want AFR to remain pretty constant around your idle. I say +/- .5 AFR max from target.

I sucked it up after a while and moved my temp sensor to the outlet of the IC.
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