MS3X and sequential injection
 

I am installing a 99 motor into a 97. The previous owner had this engine in his 93. The PO had installed the CAS from his 93 and removed the trigger wheel. The PO has installed the 93 cam pulleys as well.

I have the following ready to install:

1. MS3X programmed for sequential injection
2. EFR6258
3. ID 1000 injectors
4. Vishnu Dual feed rail
5. Toyota COPs.

What will I need to run sequential injection on this engine?

Do I need to replace the 93 CAS with my 97 CAS?
Do I need to get a trigger wheel and sensor?

I have read thru forums but am still not clear. Any help is much appreciated.
:noob:

If you have the early NA optical CAS you can get a new wheel from DIYAUTOTUNE that should be able to offer a single signal for sequential injection. This will also offer higher resolution for approximated crank position
Optical trigger wheel for Nissan SR20DET or KA24DE DIYAutoTune.com


If you switch out the optical CAS for the later hall effect NA version, you have to lob off all teeth but one, which, i'm not sure.

additional info:Our Friend CAS

Or you can add an oem trigger wheel up front for crank position, and use the modified CAS for ignition or install a BP4W/MSM cam gear on the intake side and try running any 99-00 or MSM code for MS3 that might accomodate the stock sensors.

I'm having the same dilemma. I have all sensors available to me except the hall effect CAS, but I don't which route to go. If I use the stock BP4W sensor, I'll have to grind off two nubs on the intake cam gear, and still have to figure out how to setup the 36-1 trigger wheel

Seq. works with the 90-95 CAS or an unmodded 96-97 CMP/CKP or the 99-00 CMP/CKP.

Do you have any of those options? the Stock 99-00 setup being the best.

The NA CAS does provide both CMP and CKP signals required for sequential fuel and ignition, so if you want to take the most minimalist approach, what you have installed on the engine now works. However the CAS is driven off the timing gear, as such it is subject to slop which results in timing jitter. Since it looks like you're going with a pretty boss setup, I would go ahead and reinstall the 99 crank and cam triggers on the engine. The 99 CKP trigger is bolted directly to the crank and is much more accurate than the signal from the NA CAS. Option 3 would be to return to all 99 spec but use the FM 36-2 trigger wheel instead of the OE 4 tooth wheel. Theoretically that would result in the greatest accuracy of all the 'plug in' style options.

Perhaps you can help me figure out what to do with my setup. I want to use the 99 sensors but was under the impression I had to grind off the twin stubs on the cam gear so only one pulse per rotation was identified. Is this accurate?

I also have the supermiata damper/36-1 trigger wheel; is setting this up as easy as counting the offset angle from TDC and entering the wheel type?

Also as far as wiring, can the 99 sensors just be paired up to an NA's CAS wiring? Can power/ground be common for both the CMP and CKP with the signal wire be tapped right to the original CAS wiring?

I haven't swapped the car yet, but am trying to address these questions so the project doenst hang.

Color me dumb. :brain: I am NOT

What is CMP and CKP?

Going to all 99 spec would involve the following right?

1. Remove the existing CAS
2. Install the 99 Intake CAM with trigger
3. Install the 99 CAM sensor (I still have the 99 valve cover)
4. Install the FM 36-2 trigger wheel
5. Install the 99 crank sensor (hopefully do not have to change oil pump)
6. Any wiring change?

This was the case on the MS1, and ONLY on the MS1.

With the MS2 and MS3, the OEM NB sensors and plates can be used without modification. Simply tell the ECU that you have a '99-05 Miata engine and you wish to run fully sequential (four injector channels) and the ECU will do all the rest automatically.


Now, if you bring any other crankwheel into the mix (such as a 12T or 36T wheel), then you will need to physically modify the cam gear (99-00) or camshaft (01-05) to take it down to just one pulse per rev. But so long as you use the stock crankwheel, you can also use the stock cam/gear with no mods needed.

EDIT: I have been informed that a recent code change supports 36-2 in the FM configuration with the stock NB CAS pattern.

Frankly, I wouldn't bother with an aftermarket wheel here. The prediction on the MS3 is pretty damn accurate.

FTFY.

Abbreviations.

Generally, CKP means CranKshaft Position, and CMP means CaMshaft Position. In some communities, CKP is also called Ne, and CMP is refered to as G. (I have no idea what these stand for.)

In the case of an NB, the distinction between CKP and CMP is fairly obvious.

In the NA, where both signals come from the same sensor (the CAS), we typically call CKP the signal on the White wire, which gives four evenly-spaced pulses per camshaft revolution (one pulse per ignition event), and the CMP signal the one on the Yellow or Yellow / Blue wire, which gives two uneven pulses per camshaft revolution (one short, one long) which determine absolute engine phase but are not used for event-timing.

Do I still need to install 99 OEM trigger wheel instead of 36-2?

yes. i assumed that would already be installed...

just need stock 99-00 sensors/wheels/whatever

Thank you kindly. Looks like I'll have to re-evaluate my setup and find a way to remove the pulley now.

Wiring these sensors into an NA6 is just a matter of splicing into the existing cmp/ckp leads of the stock CAS?

switched power, ground, and the signals back to the ECU.

Yeah, snip off the CAS connector, split the +12V and ground into two and run them to both sensors, then run the CKP wire from the CAS to your crank sensor and the CMP wire from the CAS to your new cam sensor.

You guys are....amazing.

No modification to the cam trigger is needed IF

• You use the stock NB 4 tooth crank trigger (or)
• You use the FM 36-2 crank trigger

If you use any other crank trigger, it will need to be paired with a 1 tooth cam trigger for sequential operation of injection and/or ignition.

The FM crank trigger is theoretically more accurate than the stock 4 tooth crank trigger. I would expect the greatest delta to occur during sudden RPM transients (hard accel/decel). However I do not know if there is a real world advantage or not. I have the FM wheel on my 01.

unfortunately the SuperMiata damper uses a proprietary trigger wheel and will not fit the FM 36-2.

The tooth configuration is also slightly different otherwise I'd have no qualms with chopping an additional tooth off to match the FM setup.

This may seem rudimentary but why exactly couldn't you turn the SuperMiata 36-1 into a 36-2? Even if the tooth spacing is slightly different, can't you set the MS to compensate?

https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1384799486http://949racing.com/images/products...erwhl_damp.jpg

I mean seriously... its a wheel missing some teeth :dunno:

For preset trigger configurations (for example selecting 99-00 miata in megasquirt) can you edit field for tooth #1 angle? Also is there a code for the 99-00 miata to run the FM 36-2 wheel, I thought that was geared toward Hydra users. If I can use whatever makes a motor run on stock BP4W sensors and trigger points and a 36-2 with an adjusted offset angle, then I guess my inquiry is moot.

Again, I'm grasping at straws to understand how to make this setup work. I'm still finishing the motor and the MS3 is sitting out until swap. It's apparent that I've been confusing methods between different MS iterations, and apologize for any spread of misinformation.

I'm still on MS1 and stock 1.6L so I cannot access many of these to familiarize myself.

From the photos, if the wheel is positioned at TDC tooth #1 appears

shy before 9 o'clock on the FM trigger wheel

~1 o'clock on the SuperMiata trigger wheel

Right, I too am trying to learn as well. Hell, I'm still waiting for my MS. In for win ;)

No, the wheel decoder was written specifically for the relationship between the FM wheel and the NB's stock cam trigger. To use any other wheel besides either the stock 4 tooth wheel or the FM 36-2 wheel, you will need to pair with a 1 tooth cam trigger.

Gotcha! I didn't realize it was "hard coded" into the system. Good think I bought the 4T wheel with my damper. Thank you for the confirmation :bigtu:

All "unusual" configurations are hard-coded. In this context, anything involving unevenly-spaced pules is unusual.

The "generic" wheel decoder, which lets you specify arbitrary (non-OEM) configurations, can only understand custom configurations in which the tooth spacing is even on both wheels. This is why I was rather surprised when Ben told me the code had been revised to accommodate the FM 36-2 wheel and the stock NB cam. Such a configuration would have been impossible with the "generic" decoder.

Huh, and here I thought you could just "change it" in the system.

What are the chances of getting DIY to add things like the other two tooth profiles available with SuperMiata damper?

alternately

At what point do you need more than the stock profile 4T wheel? I don't want this to turn into a "Everyone needs 3" exhaust all the time regardless of power level" type debate, I'm genuinely curious. I realize that sometimes more is just more and just because something is "better" doesn't mean we actually need it.

Since I have to acquire the 99 OEM cam gear with trigger, what are the benefits of getting TODA racing adjustable cam gears? If I go with the TODA, do I need to replace both cam gears with adjustable or can I get away with just the intake and keep the exhaust cam gear that I have.

Depends on if you want to have adjustability on both cams. IIRC the toda gears will work with the cam sensor on the 99 motor since they have the nubs on them too.

What's required to get something hard-coded?

Brain mentioned once something about taking a composite log of the signals. However, I suppose that code development would be subject to the amount of demand for this specific setup, and since it's not a widely used configuration it'd just be easier to:

1) switch to an oem 4 tooth trigger wheel and run 99-00 code, easy peasy but costs additional $125 (replacement trigger wheel for supermiata damper)

2) Grind off the twin bumps off the cam gear, setup MS3 using "Toothed Wheel" option.
-36 tooth gear with one tooth missing, measuring the angle of the sensor which is ~ 250° BTDC
-Setting the trigger wheel seems straight forward....

... but the bump on the cam gear at TDC is positioned just before the sensor, so how does one account for this angle?

By and large, DIY are not the ones doing code development. They certainly have a large amount of influence with the developers, however the MS3 code is all done by a group of volunteers who are part of the "general" MSExtra development community, principally James Murray and Kenneth Culver. Thus, all requests for code modifications tend to go through them.

Alternately, the source code has been published so you are technically free to go and hack it in yourself, or to pay someone else to do it for you. This, of course, will create a forked build that you are now responsible for maintaining.

Does Fidanza sell a 99 intake cam gear with the trigger? Fidanza is cheaper than Toda, but I am unable find the one with trigger.

Ken would probably be able to make a trigger wheel pattern work easily if you simply supplied a composite log of the triggers.

Since the Supermiata 12+1 trigger wheel isn't evenly spaced or hard coded. I'm reading that to say that it's completely useless until someone writes code for it?

If this is the same one that 949 and Trackspeed had, then it is evenly spaced. (A missing tooth does not count as uneven.)

However, while you could use this wheel in batch mode with no CMP, or cut down the cam/gear to only one tooth, you could not use a 12T wheel with a stock NB cam pattern unless a custom definition was hard coded for it.



Whoops, mis read that. No, 12+1 would not work without a custom setup. That's what dremels are for.

Do you know, roughly, what turn around time is? I'm wondering if I could skate by on batch with the 36-1, lay the wires out for sequential, then make the switch when the code is written. Then all I'd have to do is locate where the injectors are paired and snip/join.

here:

after talking more it sounds like they'd be willing to do it and it'd be easy for them.

Just gotta figure out what we are asking for here with the 36-1 wheel...

I like where this thread is going. Scott, thanks for asking the guys :party:

Wait a minute, might this allow the supermiata 12T wheel work with full sequential and standard NB sensors? I swayed to the stock 4T setup after Dimitris convinced me to since it was either easier or unsupported at the time. I forgot which it was.

:2cents:
I'd like to see code support for sequential ignition and injection for both the SuperMiata 12+1 (or modified 12-1 or 12T) and 36-1 wheels using OEM 99/00 and 01/05 cam and trigger setups. I don't mean to be a dick but this seems like a no-brainer. Most of the guys who are actually building and running hardcore turbo builds or N/A race motors with stand alone ECUs are building BPs, and they are going to jump at the 949/SuperMiata damper. Code is there for the FM wheel, why not get some love for the 949 gear :dunno:

For me, hardware is easy, its the software that kills me. I'll be honest: I'm a moron when it comes to this kind of stuff. If I can't just check a box I'll probably fuck it up on the configuration side. If I have to modify a trigger wheel or a CAS or something to make this work, I have no problem doing that provided I have clear instructions. Just don't ask me to conduct a physiology lecture or direct a light opera on the software side.

the 99-00 and 01-05 cam sensor signal is the same right? I'm assuming it is using my superior knowledge of things.

honestly if I can get James a composite log of the 36-1 with a 99-05 cam signal, he'd probably write the code to support it.

Pretty sure it is. Same cam sensor, only moved to back of valve cover instead of the cam gear due to VVT.

well if someone wants to get a log of the pattern, pretty sure they will develop the code for it for the ms3.

If I had the ability to do so, you know I would :sadwavey:

I really really appreciate the info in this thread. Like EO2k, this stuff is well beyond my comprehension and the spoon feeding really helps.

Just to make sure I understand (before I go hacking up my brand new $125 trigger wheel and make it even more useless)... your suggestion is to hack off the 2 "extra" triggers and make it a 12-1, correct?

Only if you want to run batch injection and wasted spark, with no cam sensor. Any "generic" wheel (36-1, 36-2, 12-1, etc) is inherently a little bit of a hack job on a Miata, with varying degrees of "gotcha." And also, we'll need to specifically calculate which tooth to cut off. It's been a while since I played with the custom wheel decoder thingy.

Can anyone provide me with an accurate diagram of the location of the NB crank sensor relative to the engine / plate, preferably with some info as to how many degrees ATDC the sensor itself is?

Tomorrow I can check relative to the 36-1 wheel I have.

each tooth and gap is 10 degrees apart, so it will be easy for me to count, provided the sensor sits dead on a tooth or gap.

Are there any manufacturer other than TODA who make adjustable cam gear with trigger for the intake side?

How cheap do you want to go? There's BLOX brand for $150 a pair:

Adjustable Cam Gear Mazda Miata MX5 Protege Escort 1 6L 1 8L 2 Pcs B6 BP NB6 8 | eBay

https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1384906490

https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1384906490

post up adjustable cam gear options! - MX-5 Miata Forum

SR Motorsports Mazda Miata Parts. Miata Performance Engine Parts.
Maruha Motors Cam Gear
Fidanza Fidanza Adjustable Cam Gear (1994-2000)
OBX Racing Product Name - OBX Racing Sports

Probably more in that thread...

orlmiata specifically asked for gears that incorporated the trigger bumps required for use on the intake side of a '99-'00 Miata, wherein the CMP sensor reads the intake cam pulley rather than the cam itself.

Thanks..:)

I have searched google with every combination of search phrase I can think of but find that only TODA has the triggers. There is the blox that you mentioned, but has gotten bad reviews in other forums. I was just looking to if anyone else had come across other makers.
The performance gain worth the money for the TODA's?

Sorry, I thought most of those listed it as an option. My baaaaad :facepalm:

On closer review, it looks like the ones from SR Motorsports may support this, I'm guessing you have to install some taller bolts into those three holes?

https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1384958151

The rest do not appear to.

The angle was measured using a 36-1 trigger wheel. From the very top, I counted 11 teeth to the sensor when positioned with a credit card gap (despite what the picture shows, there is indeed a gap).

Since each tooth is 10° from one another, the angle of the sensor would then be 110° ATDC. It can be argued by the poor quality photo that the sensor location is just slightly after 110° but it is within 5° (the angle between the center of the tooth and the center of the gap).

Just as a reference, tooth #1 of the SuperMiata Damper/Trigger wheel is positioned 180° from TDC

Crank at TDC
https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...120_181301-jpg

the 11th tooth falling on the sensor
https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...120_181347-jpg

Obligatory shot of tooth #1 positioned 180° from TDC
https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...120_181426-jpg


I hope at least some of this is useful

Can I use the Crank Sensor off my 97 on the 99 I am installing? The part numbers are different and they look different too but I wonder if they are functionally the same.
Also I am going to buy the 99 CAM angle sensor, but cannot find the wiring connector. Does anyone know where I can get one or what type of connector is used?

if you can actually mount it properly, yes.

Check out the Connector Witch Hunt thread, I think I saw that one on the spreadsheet in there.

They are quite different internally, and are not interchangeable in an OEM ECU context, though with most aftermarket ECUs they are able to be interchanged.

The '95-'97 cars use a "bare" VR sensor on the crank (literally just a bar magnet with a coil of wire wrapped around it, encased in plastic.) This sensor has a differential output which produces an AC waveform between the Y/B and Y/W wires. The third terminal at the connector is just a shield, and is not functionally active in the circuit (the output signal of the sensor is not referenced to it.)

The '99-'05 crank sensor is a "conditioned" sensor, much like the CAS of the earlier cars. It has an open-collector output which produces a squarewave signal when supplied with an external pullup voltage.

The cam sensor on the '99-'05 cars is electrically identical to the crank sensor.





It's a Yazaki SSD series, part number 7283-8730-30.

Here's a link: Yazaki SSD Sealed Connector Series 3 Position Female Housing [Black]

The pins are sold separately: Yazaki SSD Sealed Connector Series Female Terminal 0.3-0.5 mm2 [Tin Plating]

With terminals of this nature, where you don't have the proper crimp tool, it's advisable to buy more than you need, because you will be screwing some of them up. Eg: if you need 3, buy 20. They're quite cheap, right until the point where you run out of them.

And here are the fancy back-seals: Yazaki SSD Sealed Connector Series Wire Seal 0.3-0.5 mm2 [Brown]

Ben, why does diyautotune support the FM wheel when FM doesn't sell Megasquirt ecu's?
I realise it's not diy writing the code, but I'm sure it was diy who asked for the code to be written for FM's wheel.
Why don't you support the oem Mazda 36-2 wheel? It's cheaper then FM's, available from any Mazda dealer and a straight fit on a miata.
For the price of having one FM wheel shipped overhere, I can buy 3 oem's at the local dealership!

because tons of people with FM wheels bothered diy enough to get them to develop the code for the pattern of it.