Mtx-l plus erratic behavior
 

Hey having some issues with my MTX-L plus WB. Any help/guidance would be much appreciated. I currently have the WB installed in the stock position. I was only driving it on the weekends to familiarize myself with the MS. Due to a family members jeep going out I loaned them my DD an started driving the 99 with the MS. Was driving fine for about 4 days(during that time autotuning to an from work until I wasnt getting anymore cell change). On the 5th day got an E8 error code as I was pulling into work. On the way home had no issues and for the next two days no issues. long story short and not related but 3rd day after E8 the water pump went out an so I replaced it over the weekend. During this time I had the battery disconnected(shouldn't matter). Anyway. Started up an drove fine for a day then randomly started freezing up/pegging full lean or rich and staying stuck there for awhile. It appears to be heat related but I was wondering if anyone could take a look at the log an give an opinion. It has not given an error code again just the erratic behavior. I cant tell if its noise or bad sensor.


Summary: MTX-L plus. 12v wired with fuse an relay from battery. Ground going directly to MS3. Stock location o2 sensor. No error code.
So results of my searches an your opinions on what route I should take if it is in fact the sensor.
1) Heatsink like posted in this thread https://www.miataturbo.net/diy-turbo...eadings-93315/
2) Weld the 1" bung it came with further down stream(have a mig so can do myself)
3) Throw on aftermarket header(obx i think, pulled off donor) I have laying around with bung further down.

Turbo is still a month out an want to get these FF in an "tuned" before then. Don't want to buy another sensor until I know for sure its bad.
Thanks

Try recalibrating? :dunno:

Awww shite thought I covered everything I did... Yeah I recalibrated it twice. No change. It does appear to show acurrate readings while at idle after it "unfreezes" not sure if that means anything..

If the sensor is bad heat didn't kill it. EGT's on turbo cars are much much higher and not necessarily any further down stream than the stock location.

What does the manual say the E8 code means?

It popped the E8 code once last week then was working fine. I found some people with similar issues on the nismo forums but there was never any resolution to their issue. After trying another sensor only to have the same issue most appeared to switch to the aem x-series.

This is very similar to what mine is doing now but with no E8 error it appears his issue was the heater controller but then makes a comment about how it was wired in bad by a shop.. kind of lost on what the most painless way to tackle this is.

Well there you go. Even the manual says it would only happen at WOT if it were overheating. All signs point to a new sensor.

Alright ill bite the bullet. Guess I was just looking for some confirmation. After researching I found a lot of horror stories about going through 2-3 sensor before just switching units.
Thanks again

It's right there in the manual....

Without having an O-scope and knowing what to look for with it you won't get a more definite answer,

One thing they probably dont say in the manual is to never let the sensor pre-heat without the engine running. Its really easy to do when you have it wired to ignition. Letting it heat up while you sit there goofing off, then when you star the engine the condensed water from a cold engine hits the sensor and kills it.

Make sure you weld that new bung for turbo use 3 ft from where the turbo will sit.

solution to all of this: toss the innovate in the trash where it belongs and get an aem.

All the threads I see regarding MTXL or LC1/LC2 is why I sold my new one...mostly

Grrrr. I already ordered the replacement sensor earlier. Might just send it back an get the x-series... I don't want to deal with this again. Also don't want to be out the $100 for the mtxl but such is life I guess. Idk.

AEM has a screen refresh rate slower than calculator

Yeah, its a huge problem that never ever affected anything or impacted in any way on the 600+ cars I've tuned. YOu're right

lol

Ha. Idk. just started using an ol ti-84 again and it takes forever. So I mean from what I've found just doing a quick search the aem signal appears to be cleaner (maybe just CAN setup) than the mtx but does the refresh rate of the screen really matter that much? From my limited understanding really only need the gauge for initial tuning after your honed in it's more of just a safety monitor. An of most of the tuning is being through TS does it matter if its slightly slower? Guess what I'm asking is does the refresh rate affect the signal the MS is receiving?

Guess that kinda answers my above question... Lol

My MTX-L would peg full lean and come back on at idle, new bosch sensor fixed it, got it at pepboys of all places, in stock for a decent price ($45)

cool story

why even bother using a gauge?

To be fair, they both use the same Bosch sensor so if the sensor failed on the mtx-l it would fail on an aem.

OP has a MS3 though which means AFR over can bus without a separate module on AEM x-series. It's really really nice.

​​​​​​
My understanding was that the control algorithm for the embedded heater in the sensor it proprietary to each mfg. This could potentially impact reliability across products with identidical sensors.

you can't possibly be this dumb. try again
Never, not once have I had this issue with aem. tons with innovate, never with aem.

people just want to justify their bad decisions so I'll let this thread carry on.

That's entirely possible but it seems to me that would be pretty hard to fuck up. I assumed the element was something as simple as a coil of nichrome wire and the controller fed power to the element for a set length of time when the controller was powered on. I haven't put a meter or scope on one to know for sure though, and info seems sparse. Do you have any info you can link?

Your whole point is that the gauge being dirt slow doesnt matter because as long as its logging quickly and without high latency, thats all you need to tune. Right?
So why even bother with a gauge? Just use something like the Spartan.

I have an MTX-L installed in my car but I really dont need it. I never really need to look at it, but at least when I do I see whats happening at that moment, not half a second ago.
For tuning I typically use my LM-2 which is dead handy when Im working on random shit where Im not able to log AFR in the ECU... assuming it even has an ECU.

As for Innovate being allegedly the shittiest products ever according to forum group-think, In the past 10 years Ive had a handful of issues with bad controllers and sensors getting killed prematurely. All LC-1s. They run the heaters too hard and dont turn off.

Years ago I tested an AEM and LC-1 with a benchtop PSU. The LC-1 pulled significantly more current while heating up and didnt seem to ever shut off the heater circuit. The AEM probably heats up a lot slower, which like I mentioned previously, is a good way to save sensors when people leave their ignition on without running the engine.

The gauge is for eyeballing from time to time after the car is tuned in case something happens, kinda like a warning light. Unless you set up a really effective failsafe in the ecu, it's actually really useful. It's not used to tune with, obviously. Also it's still nowhere near as slow as you're making it seem. Also even with the "uber fast" mtx-l and lm2 your physical/human response time will still not be anywhere near effective or relevant.

In summary, you're making a nearly worthless feature justify a terrible flaw that's plagued this gauge/series for years now.

It is what it is. We'll just agree to disagree. I've not replaced a single sensor in the 10+ years or had this issue :)Dead wrong. it's exactly the opposite. all aem's I've tested warm up in at least half the time as Innovate

btw have you ever used the aem x series? you'll be surprised

Verrrrrry interesting. I would have expected there to be no current regulating circuit in the controller. I assumed current was simply limited by the resistance of the element which would mean the same current regardless of the controller. Did you use the same sensor for both, and did you let it cool between tests?

I clearly need to do more research.

https://10carbest.com/best-wideband-gauges

also:
AEM X-Series Wideband AFR Controller Tested: Fastest Responding Wideband Confirmed! | Speed Academy

https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...37f6ae41f5.jpg

Never owned one. Tuned some cars with them but never paid much attention to the display.
I had the old AEM UEGO and it was very user friendly but you'd be cruising at 14.7, put your foot down and the engine would have twisted up 1500 rpm before the screen refreshed. The analog output seemed fine though.

Its probably just PWM'ing the heater circuit. This was no joke like probably 8 years ago or so, so I dont remember too many specifics. Im pretty sure we recorded a video about it but idk where it is. I recall putting it on youtube but I dont see it.

Ive been considering ditching the MTX-L for something like a spartan, but maybe Ill try the AEM X just to see what the fuss is about.

Fuck me that makes way more sense. I'll throw a scope on mine some time.

oh btw speaking of innofail, just today YET ANOTHER of my tuning customers had his innovate sensor die YET AGAIN. placed far away from engine on a low boost bp6d.
@muthagoose can share his experience with terrible innov-hate. I haven't seen more failures out of any other brand of wideband except the failtastic ebay chineesium ones

I've had absolutely rotten luck with my innovate LC-2. I'm burning out sensors so fast I'm getting whiplash, and those LSU4.9's ain't cheap. Multiple engines, multiple exhausts, all with sensor mounted at 12 o'clock before the cat. Cold damp start does it, which has made tuning cold start a painful and expensive process. If you let it warm up to temp before start? Death. If you stall cuz your startup sequence is wonky, and try to start it again without letting it cool back down? Death.

​​​​​​Interesting to hear that AEM isn't so horrible.

Interesting. I wonder if the lc1 uses a different setting for controlling that heater than the lc2. My oxygen sensor is only the second one in 10 years on lc1.

Sounds like Rev's hypothesis is that Innovate is shit & miss with their FW:

https://www.miataturbo.net/ecus-tuni...3/#post1501532

Based on this consensus, I'm going to stop blaming my sensor deaths on my own tuning abuse, and walk away from innovate.

New config will be: LSU4.9->AEM 03-300 X series->MSlabs CAN WB02->MS3PNPPRO FW 1.4.1

Sounds expensive? I just added it up, and I've bought $350 dollars worth of sensors in 3 years.

Are you running anything else over CAN? Are you opposed to switching to 1.5.1?

If the answer is no to both of those you don't need the WB module if you just want AFR over CAN.

Engine states gives me the fear. Also, the WB CAN module puts out a fakey 14.7 signal if a sensor craps out, and I don't think there's any other way to get that feature.

Also, I already have one in hand.

AEM ordered. I got the Innovate because my cousin has run them in two of his cars an never had an issue. Guess he got lucky.

Anyone have any experience with this? I was trying to read up on it in the ms forum. Im still on 1.4.1 fw just because im scarred to change it. I seem to recall reading the 1.4.x firmware being more stable than the 1.5.x fw. Could be totally off though..