Originally Posted by hustler (Post 294171)

well, the problem with that is how long it takes. Some want 6 hours to tune...I don't have that kind of money. I could probably get it done in 2 hours with supervision. Then, if I want to do a pull with new plugs...bam, another $120 in labor just to switch them out. When turbo to manifold studs start backing out...there's another $120 each time they tighten them. If they want to just drop my car off at this shop for tuning, they have no reason to do it as quickly as possible...they could probably do the work in an hour or 2, and they'd still charge me $1000.
Aside from exatorq in Dallas, everyone else quotes me the same garbage prices if I tell them "i only need spark tuned" versus "I don't know what I'm doing and I need you to do everything." It doesn't take 6-hours to make a spark table, if it does you need to reevaluate you skillset. Only one place has given me a realistic price-range.

I don't think begi would rip me off...but they're farming it out. At this point, I'm tempted to load up the miata and drive to hotlanta.


Most importantly, I want to learn how to do it, not just cut a check.

Originally Posted by hustler (Post 294190)

I have no problem getting everything set up, aside from spark. I've done it on my car, a friend's car, and a turbo car.

Let me give you a quick run-down of how it works when you try to get a ballpark price.

call #1:
"how much to just tune the spark table, and make minor adjustments?'
"well, blah blah blah you're shit is not adjusted right, we'll fix cold start."
"no, how much to just tune the spark table, and make minor adjustments?'
"$1000 or 6-8 hours, and extra to do stuff like change plugs"

Call#2, to the same place, a couple months later:
"i'm dumb and need you to set up everything on my car"
"$1000 or 6-8 hours, and extra to change the plugs"

I've found one guy who said he didn't know MS, but wanted to work with it. He said he'd work the dyno, and tell me where to add or pull values. I think I just answered my own question.

Originally Posted by y8s (Post 294318)

if you're going to tune your spark on a dyno, there's no point in having a "road tune" first. you can tune a fuel curve on a loading dyno in about 5 minutes.

I find that it's real hard to do a "stay in a load site" method of tuning spark. better to do various rpm runs at different loads. basically paint lines across the map. you'll start to see trends in power output as you change spark (and fuel).

so maybe what you want to do is use the same off-boost spark as everyone else and then set your boost to various levels and run through the RPMs that way and tune each boost level individually.

Originally Posted by hustler (Post 294311)

try upping the req fuel to get more resolution out of the table. Suddenly this thread belongs in another forum.

I got a guys 1.6 to idle at 14.7 with 460's last weekend.

Originally Posted by johndoe (Post 294348)

I decided to quote you in this thread instead of continuing to jack the other:


explain to me how changing the req fuel does anything to resolution? Currently my idle AFRs with 550cc injectors is 11-11.5AFR with Hi-Res. The VE numbers for the idle cells are 44 at a KPA of 28 so I think I have plenty of room to go up or down in my VE numbers.

If the idle is fast, say 1300RPM I can get the idle to 14.0 but obviously that's not the right way to go about it. I'm using DIY's setting for idle control. Is this an anomaly or is everyone idling 550s rich?

Originally Posted by johndoe (Post 294348)

Currently my idle AFRs with 550cc injectors is 11-11.5AFR with Hi-Res.

Originally Posted by Stephanie Turner (Post 294340)

The dyno rates are very reasonable and Corey is not out to screw you. He is a good guy. If you want it done on the dynojet, it is much cheaper and we operate that dyno. If you need to change plugs or anything - go for it - you are more than capable and it is one less thing for us to do.

Originally Posted by johndoe (Post 294351)

Let me quote myself:

Originally Posted by johndoe (Post 294380)

Obviously the quoting myself thing didn't stick: I'M RUNNING HI-RES ALREADY!

Originally Posted by johndoe (Post 294408)

Y8S this is what I'm using for AFR targets currently. So MLV changes everything around idle and I change those 4 cells back to 44 because I've tried manually lowering the VE in those cells and the idle gets rough and there's a lot of popping going on. I'm also currently at 18 degrees advance in those cells, I'll try 14.

Originally Posted by y8s (Post 294413)

if you datalog the 55-65kpa cells below 1800 rpm, what AFR do you get?

Originally Posted by johndoe (Post 294376)

What the shit? You have bigger injectors running leaner? Mind sharing your idle settings?

Originally Posted by johndoe (Post 294457)

update: After the changes every so often after coming to a stop and idling for 5-10 seconds the car wants to die now. Idle dips and I have to give it some gas to save it.

Originally Posted by Markp (Post 294341)

You don't need a dyno to tune the spark map of a car, but you do need a repeatable piece of road and someone in the car doing the tuning other than the driver. It is possible albeit more labor intensive to get a great map on the road, provided you have the right road and a car that is reasonably safe to drive.

You want to find a long uphill stretch of straight road in the middle of nowhere. Baker Grade in California is perfect for this but roads like this exist everywhere. Unfortunately you can't do the speed limited type of tuning that is possible on a dyno, but you can get really close, close enough not to matter.

Datalogs are your friend, stolen spark tables are your friend, remember your motor is likely to act in a VERY similar manner to most everyone else. Dyno time is really useful when you are looking for that last 5-10 HP, that's it. Everything else can be done on the road.

I would rent the dyno without any tuning support. Most dyno guys can't help themselves anyway, they'll likely jump in and help. Rent an hour, see how you do after you have really thoroughly road tuned it.

Mark

Originally Posted by paul (Post 294577)

MSI HiRes with 550s and 460s in my 2 Miatas and I can idle em both at 15, 16, or 17 AFR. WTF are you doing wrong? I run 18 degrees at idle for both. Using the correct Req Fuel value for each, not inflated for higher res. Idle cells are in the 40's for both cars.

Thought you were gonna make it down this way one day so mess with your MS.

Originally Posted by Rafa (Post 294585)

First of all; great post by Mark.

Would anyone care to explain this part: "You want to find a long uphill stretch of straight road" a little further?

What I mean is; why on an uphill and what grade?

Thanks

Originally Posted by y8s (Post 294593)

steep as possible. the reason is that you can't generate full boost in lower gears because there's not enough load on the motor

and more importantly, if you try to go flat out in taller (4th, 5th) gears to fine tune your high boost maps, you'll end up going very fast on public roads.

on a steep hill in 2nd you can keep it at reasonable speeds.

Originally Posted by paul (Post 294577)

MSI HiRes with 550s and 460s in my 2 Miatas and I can idle em both at 15, 16, or 17 AFR. WTF are you doing wrong? I run 18 degrees at idle for both. Using the correct Req Fuel value for each, not inflated for higher res. Idle cells are in the 40's for both cars.

Thought you were gonna make it down this way one day so mess with your MS.

Originally Posted by coastertrav (Post 294689)

Also if you are looking for a spot on tune contact Tony at T1 in Dallas, he is the man.

He tuned a buddy of mines Civic for under $600 and that included installing Hondata, and the car seriously behaves like stock.

Not only that, but you will go home with a baggy that has a lifetime supply of sparkplugs as he pulls them after every run to check for detonation and swaps in a new set.

Originally Posted by ZX-Tex (Post 294716)

So what is the deal with all of the spark plug consumption? Why not just use detonation cans? It is pretty easy to hear pinging.

Originally Posted by hustler (Post 294741)

I already tried and Tony didn't want my money. He'd rather talk shit about MS "not doing what i want it to do, so won't use it." he wasn't rude or anything, but didn't want $500 to work the dyno and let me tune it. His loss, I was going to bring cash too.

Originally Posted by coastertrav (Post 294754)

Yeah, he is really big on Hondata and Motec, those are his ECUs of choice.

Meh, I can see your point, but at the same time if I was in his shoes I would rather tune somebody else's car than run the dyno while you tune your own for less money. He isn't exactly hurting for customers you know.

Anyway, good luck. I'm not familiar with any other tuners in your area.

Originally Posted by hustler (Post 294913)

any thoughts on tuning spark with EGT? If you have target AFR's tuned with a wideband, why not adjust spark within the acceptable heat range (whatever that may be)?

Originally Posted by jayc72 (Post 294923)

What's acceptable? What makes the most power?

Originally Posted by y8s (Post 294965)

i would use EGT only as a gut check since both AFR and spark affect EGT.

but remember, AFR affects spark tuning a lot less than spark tuning affects AFR. an AFR that's plus or minus 1 (11:1-13:1) is not going to change power output as much as spark being off 3 degrees.

also keep in mind that high EGT is a product of fire on the wrong side of the valves. either because a lean mixture burns slower (and is still burning as the exh valves open) or because you ignited it so late (retard) that it's burning as the exhaust opens. similarly, not advancing spark as RPMs rise will lead to the same result--the burn cycle stays the same while the time between spark and valve events is shorter.

just do a quick fuel autotune and then start monkeying with spark.

Originally Posted by y8s (Post 294977)

i guess I meant to say that AFR and spark both affect power.

spark wont affect AFR much at all which is why you can tune it quite a bit before re-doing your fuel map. as the engine starts to make more power at the same RPM/MAP values though, you'll have to add in more fuel. a powerful engine is a thirsty engine.

and fix the autotune. or at least learn to use MLV to do it.

Originally Posted by y8s (Post 295008)

inject the same fuel and air into the chamber and dont ignite it... does afr change?

Originally Posted by Mach929 (Post 295079)

i'm pretty sure you want them 1500-1600

Originally Posted by Rafa (Post 295083)

That was precisely why I asked. I don't see temps on my EGT gauge going over 1,000* and that's with the sensor located less than 1 foot from my turbo (really close to the manifold). Before changing my maps I used to see 800* temps on the gauge but I can recall hearing my local tuner saying that 1,000* temps were a bit high.

Originally Posted by Rafa (Post 295066)

Sorry hustler but I have to ask; no one has replied about what would be an acceptable value for EGTs.

I changed my maps the other day and ever since I find my EGTs are a little higher than before. Can someone give me a reasonable range in EGT temps?

Thanks