Some Help in Understanding Different Megasquirts - Miata Turbo Forum - Boost cars, acquire cats.

Welcome to Miataturbo.net   Members
 


MEGAsquirt A place to collectively sort out this megasquirt gizmo

Reply
 
 
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
Old 07-15-2014, 07:20 PM   #1
Junior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Green Cove Springs, Florida
Posts: 71
Total Cats: 7
Default Some Help in Understanding Different Megasquirts

I've waded through the stickies, but most of them are pretty old and maybe outdated. A lot of the info there is probably great stuff for someone who gets the various acronyms. I'm interested in putting a Megasquirts in my car, but am having trouble trying to educate myself.

There, apparently, are many different Megasquirts out there. MS DIY PNP, MS2, MS3, MS with VVT controller and then there's Reverent.

I have an '03 with an FMIi Voodoo system. Car runs great does everything that the stock one does and has good power. But, as I was warned, boost is addictive and at 8 psi I'm at the limits of the stock injectors and piggyback system.

I'd like to go standalone, but only if I can wind up with a civilized car that doesn't need constant tweaking or workarounds. I'm not opposed to doing some work to tweak the system, but I'm not a computer head but can manage as long as I'm not having to deal with command lines and too much geeky stuff. Menu driven stuff I can pretty much handle.

I'm not looking to do it on the cheap. I'd rather spend $$ on something that will be easy to tune as opposed to months of tweaking. I'd probably go with a Hydra Nemisis if it weren't for the fact that they don't seem to support previous versions very well and seem to have their own connectivity and tuning issues.

So, bring on the flames for having a Voodoo box but please try to help me make some sense of a subject that, for the moment, is over my head.

Paul
pmhellings is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-15-2014, 07:39 PM   #2
Junior Member
iTrader: (1)
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Metro Detroit
Posts: 270
Total Cats: 26
Default

So, the first question is: do you have any tuning experience? It's all for not if you get a super snazzy standalone and then don't know what to do with it. Second, do you want this to be your new hobby? If not then leaving well-enough alone is not a bad idea.

That said, we're kind of in the same boat. The setup I bought uses a gen 1 MSPNP, which has its own set of limitations. It appears the MS Labs MS3 Basic is about as good as it gets for plug-n-play, I'm considering getting one even before I overhaul my hardware.

I can say that VE Analyze Live is wonderful at helping fill in the intellectual blanks for your VE table, assuming you don't have a fundamental hardware problem.

I'd say keep reading up through the MS forums and the stickies here. It'll take time but there's good info here.
Ryephile is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-15-2014, 11:23 PM   #3
Junior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Green Cove Springs, Florida
Posts: 71
Total Cats: 7
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryephile View Post
So, the first question is: do you have any tuning experience? It's all for not if you get a super snazzy standalone and then don't know what to do with it. Second, do you want this to be your new hobby? If not then leaving well-enough alone is not a bad idea.

That said, we're kind of in the same boat. The setup I bought uses a gen 1 MSPNP, which has its own set of limitations. It appears the MS Labs MS3 Basic is about as good as it gets for plug-n-play, I'm considering getting one even before I overhaul my hardware.

I can say that VE Analyze Live is wonderful at helping fill in the intellectual blanks for your VE table, assuming you don't have a fundamental hardware problem.

I'd say keep reading up through the MS forums and the stickies here. It'll take time but there's good info here.
I have no tuning experience at all and, no, I don't want tuning my car to be my new hobby. I'm trying to get enough info to see if this is something that I want to tackle. I realize that "Plug and play" really isn't. If it's "Plug and Play After Some Work" I might be all right with that.

I'm still trying to find out the differences between all the iterations of Megasquirts so I can start the learning process. I've been reading the forums, off and on, and much of the language is Greek to me and the Stickies are pretty old. Still hoping for a summary of what these are as in the MS PNP does this and the Reverant basic can do that, etc.

Thanks for the response Ryephile.

Paul
pmhellings is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-15-2014, 11:42 PM   #4
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 218
Total Cats: 15
Default

You're a prime candidate for FM Hydra then. There are no shortcuts with Megasquirt (save for having someone like Reverant build your MS for you and provide you with a base tune and support). Read the megamanual. Then read it again. Download tuner studio and dig through that. Go back and read the megamanual again. If you don't want to tune yourself and just want to build upon your basic FM setup then why not go with FM's preferred EMS?
freedomgli is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-16-2014, 12:14 AM   #5
Senior Member
iTrader: (6)
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 1,085
Total Cats: 30
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by freedomgli View Post
You're a prime candidate for FM Hydra then. There are no shortcuts with Megasquirt (save for having someone like Reverant build your MS for you and provide you with a base tune and support). Read the megamanual. Then read it again. Download tuner studio and dig through that. Go back and read the megamanual again. If you don't want to tune yourself and just want to build upon your basic FM setup then why not go with FM's preferred EMS?
Nobody is a candidate for the Hydra. That thing is ******* terrible and anyone who recommends it has never used it.

The only shortcut that exists for Hydra is writing FM a blank check and hoping that it's tuned right when they give it to you because unless you live in CO nobody else is going to touch it. Oh, that and writing FM a couple hundred dollar check every time the software updates (because they can't afford to have a $50 laptop, let alone a VM around to support old versions).
albumleaf is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-16-2014, 08:31 AM   #6
Junior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Green Cove Springs, Florida
Posts: 71
Total Cats: 7
Default

I like FM but I don't like the Hydra business plan. If I go standalone it would have to be something like what Reverant puts together I guess.

What I seem to be understanding here is that most MS set ups require quite a bit of time and tweaking to get right. That's understandable and probably fun for a lot of people and satisfying once you get it right.

What about the Reverant deal, in the real world,how much is required to dial in one of his systems? Is it near-stock in idling, A/C and power steering etc. once it's done? I've read some good things about his support, but mostly from his posts on a different forum. I'm not averse to doing some tuning but it'd have to be relatively straight forward. I'm 66 and don't have the patience to learn new computer programs as I once did.

I wouldn't mind picking up a little more power, but if I have to stay with Voodoo, that's not so bad. The car runs great as it is right now.

Paul
pmhellings is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-16-2014, 08:33 AM   #7
Elite Member
iTrader: (1)
 
Leafy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: NH
Posts: 9,092
Total Cats: 90
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by albumleaf View Post
Nobody is a candidate for the Hydra. That thing is ******* terrible and anyone who recommends it has never used it.

The only shortcut that exists for Hydra is writing FM a blank check and hoping that it's tuned right when they give it to you because unless you live in CO nobody else is going to touch it. Oh, that and writing FM a couple hundred dollar check every time the software updates (because they can't afford to have a $50 laptop, let alone a VM around to support old versions).
Its not THAT bad, besides being stupidly expensive and the upgrade system being almost a scam. Its a lot better than the AEM when put into actual use.
Leafy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-16-2014, 12:22 PM   #8
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: ATL
Posts: 728
Total Cats: 48
Default

Just from personal experience, I started with a VooDoo kit knowing full well that it was only a "get your feet wet" kind of system. I spent several months reading, re-reading and re-reading again all of the info I could here on MT.net and on MSEXTRA about the Megasquirt; got confused, got educated and got confused again.

I thought I was ready to "Go Megasquirt" and bought a used MS3X (thinking I was saving money and being smart) and that was a total fail because; a) I'm "electronics challenged" and b) the learning curve was super steep. So I sold the MS3X to someone smarter than me and bought a gen 2 MSPNP to eliminate dealing with my electronics-fail, and only work through the MS learning curve.

Six months later, my tune is "fair" (the car starts, runs and drives well - but there still are some areas that need work). I can find my way around TunerStudio for the most part. I can make sense (I think) of VE tables, spark tables and can read datalogs to make semi-intelligent decisions as to what problems are and what to do about them.

I still have a long way to go, but I think I've lifted myself out of the tuning "primordial ooze".

Short answer...it can be done, but it ain't easy.
rwyatt365 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-16-2014, 12:45 PM   #9
Cpt. Slow
iTrader: (25)
 
curly's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Oregon City, OR
Posts: 12,107
Total Cats: 518
Default

A few quick questions: what made you run the voodoo on the '03? I have a friend who was interested in this setup, and we were told by FM that it's not recommended for the VVT engines because of the higher compression.

Have you had it dyno'd?

On to your questions, here's a run down of a few acronyms:

MS1 - Antiquated system. Good for cheap cars, mostly 1.6s that aren't worth much more these days than the $800 MS2PNP ECUs.

MSPNP - 2 generations:

1st gen - built for Miatas only on an MS1 platform and were PNP into the factory harness for only '90-'93, '94-'95, and '96-'97. The NAs basically. No '99-'00 VICs or '01+ VVT motor was supported.
2nd gen - now built for a number of vehicles from BMWs to Nissans, and of course the Miata. Built off a MS2 platform. Only supports up to '00 though, again no VVT engines are supported.

MS DIY PNP - This is a confusing name, the "DIY" is the key though. It needs to be completely soldered together, but it comes with everything required so that once it's done, it's PNP to your factory harness.

MS2 - A great ECU for some of the more basic Miatas, such as ones without the need for AC control, VVT control, etc.

MS3 - A small step down from MS3x (below)

MS3x - You forgot this one in your list, and it's the latest and greatest, ignoring the water proof MS3-pro, which was built to compete mainly with the $1000+AEM units.

VVT tuner - this is a separate box available from DIYautotune.com for $200, and controls VVT separately from any MS ECU. A second tuning cable, and it's own wiring harness needs to be setup to use this.

Revarant MS - He builds MS2s, enhanced MS2s, MS3s, and I believe enhanced MS3s are still in the prototype phase? Not sure on this. Read his MS comparison chart to get an understanding of what they do, but they're PNP units for '90-'05, most can run VVT, and any number of other inputs and outputs.
curly is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-16-2014, 01:01 PM   #10
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 218
Total Cats: 15
Default

To clarify, MegaSquirtPNP (abbreviated MSPNP) is the trade name used by DIYAutoTune for their ECUs based on the compact MicroSquirt Module, which uses MS2/Extra sequential code. It is not MS2 per se.
freedomgli is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-16-2014, 01:07 PM   #11
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 218
Total Cats: 15
Default

To clarify the difference between a Reverent built "Basic MS3" versus a DIYAutoTune MS3X (v3.0 mainboard, MS3 daughter board and MS3X expansion board), see MS Labs ECU Comparison Sheet and read the comments below

Quote:
Originally Posted by Reverant View Post
The Basic MS3 is (functionality wise) like an MS3X/MS3X combo, but it also has upgraded hardware components and the required digital alternator control/smart battery light for the 99-05. It is a direct fit for any 90-05 Miata, as it comes with the proper adapter harness.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Braineack View Post
ms3x is the basic offering from B&G. This is typically a v3.0 mainboard, a ms3 daughterboard and a ms3x expander board.

this MS3 basic from Rev, is the same thing, but he designed his own expander board to build better circuits into it. Still a v3.0 mainboard and still a ms3 daughterboard.

There is little difference between the two. (Rev please correct me if I'm wrong)


the MS3 enhanced is something Reverant has designed from the ground up using his own PCB for the ms3 or ms2 daughterboard, with custom firmware to match. This comes with hardware and firmware improvements. He's working on a licensing deal to get this offering out to market.


Eeverything built by Reverant is a PNP and you can deal with him directly to customize your build or discuss the vairous options in megasquirts that he can assemble for you.
freedomgli is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-16-2014, 07:58 PM   #12
Junior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Green Cove Springs, Florida
Posts: 71
Total Cats: 7
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by curly View Post
A few quick questions: what made you run the voodoo on the '03? I have a friend who was interested in this setup, and we were told by FM that it's not recommended for the VVT engines because of the higher compression.

Have you had it dyno'd?

On to your questions, here's a run down of a few acronyms:

MS1 - Antiquated system. Good for cheap cars, mostly 1.6s that aren't worth much more these days than the $800 MS2PNP ECUs.

MSPNP - 2 generations:

1st gen - built for Miatas only on an MS1 platform and were PNP into the factory harness for only '90-'93, '94-'95, and '96-'97. The NAs basically. No '99-'00 VICs or '01+ VVT motor was supported.
2nd gen - now built for a number of vehicles from BMWs to Nissans, and of course the Miata. Built off a MS2 platform. Only supports up to '00 though, again no VVT engines are supported.

MS DIY PNP - This is a confusing name, the "DIY" is the key though. It needs to be completely soldered together, but it comes with everything required so that once it's done, it's PNP to your factory harness.

MS2 - A great ECU for some of the more basic Miatas, such as ones without the need for AC control, VVT control, etc.

MS3 - A small step down from MS3x (below)

MS3x - You forgot this one in your list, and it's the latest and greatest, ignoring the water proof MS3-pro, which was built to compete mainly with the $1000+AEM units.

VVT tuner - this is a separate box available from DIYautotune.com for $200, and controls VVT separately from any MS ECU. A second tuning cable, and it's own wiring harness needs to be setup to use this.

Revarant MS - He builds MS2s, enhanced MS2s, MS3s, and I believe enhanced MS3s are still in the prototype phase? Not sure on this. Read his MS comparison chart to get an understanding of what they do, but they're PNP units for '90-'05, most can run VVT, and any number of other inputs and outputs.
Thanks for your response Curly, that was exactly what I was looking for. It'll make searching for info easier.

As far as your questions, when I decided to turbo my '03 I chose FM because they have a great reputation. After digesting everything I could on their website, I gave them a call and talked about my goals. The Voodoo seemed to fit the bill and the only upgrades I considered at that point were aimed towards longevity and reliability, better clutch, radiator and fans, SS oil lines and wideband. FM never mentioned a problem with VVT engines. Their instructions reference installation on VVT engines so, apparently, they are recommended for it.

I've never had the car dyno'd so I have no idea of how much power it's actually making. FM claims 180 at the wheels so I'm around there or perhaps a little over as I'm at 8psi and have been able to dial back in 2* of timing. The car runs cool, no detonation and has good AFR's with a little room on the Voodoo box to add more fuel ( or more deception )

In spite of the bad rap the Voodoo gets it seems to be a pretty good product. I'm very satisfied.....except it'd be nice to pick up a little more hp since I've gotten used to what I have now.

Thanks again for your input. I almost didn't bother with this forum as it can be a tad hostile to newbies, but I've had nothing but help since I've posted.

Paul
pmhellings is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-16-2014, 08:06 PM   #13
Elite Member
iTrader: (5)
 
Erat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Detroit
Posts: 4,198
Total Cats: 260
Default

Do you have a wideband in the car?

If not, start there...

Understand what it is, what it's doing, how to read it, what it should be and everything about air fuel ratios.

In the meantime continue learning about standalone engine management.
It's not impossible, anything is possible with the right time and care taken.
Erat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-16-2014, 09:53 PM   #14
Junior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Green Cove Springs, Florida
Posts: 71
Total Cats: 7
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Erat View Post
Do you have a wideband in the car?

If not, start there...

Understand what it is, what it's doing, how to read it, what it should be and everything about air fuel ratios.

In the meantime continue learning about standalone engine management.
It's not impossible, anything is possible with the right time and care taken.
Yes, I have an AEM wideband and understand fuel ratios. Running about 11.5 at 8 psi. As I said, car is running fine with the Voodoo box, I'm just looking at going to the next step. Can't boost any more with stock injectors and can't go to bigger injectors with piggyback. This part I comprehend. Just trying to understand which flavor of Megasquirt might suit my needs.

Thanks ,
Paul
pmhellings is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-16-2014, 10:08 PM   #15
Elite Member
iTrader: (5)
 
Erat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Detroit
Posts: 4,198
Total Cats: 260
Default

You should be fine.

Send a PM to Rev as to what you have, what your goals are, price range, ect and see what he suggests.
Erat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-17-2014, 12:54 AM   #16
Elite Member
iTrader: (3)
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Granbury, TX
Posts: 6,009
Total Cats: 583
Default

Great response Curly. Props from a 1st gen MSPNP dinosaur.

Paul, if you get AFRs and injector sizing, I think you'll be fine picking up MS tuning.
hornetball is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-17-2014, 11:21 AM   #17
Supporting Vendor
 
Matt Cramer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,266
Total Cats: 51
Default

Also, we're putting the finishing touches on another MSPNP variant:

MSPNP-Pro: This is an MS3-Pro based MSPNP. The initial release will be for the '01-'05 Miatas (with VVT support) as well as a couple non-Miata applications.

We hope to have them out soon, just have a couple final check-outs before they're released now.
Matt Cramer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-17-2014, 12:46 PM   #18
Elite Member
iTrader: (3)
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Granbury, TX
Posts: 6,009
Total Cats: 583
Default

One thing I'd add about the later NBs is that some have their ECUs behind the steering column. It's a tight fit in there. Some folks have had a heck of a time fitting an MS. FowlerMotorsports (Justin Fowler) comes to mind.
hornetball is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-17-2014, 12:54 PM   #19
Cpt. Slow
iTrader: (25)
 
curly's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Oregon City, OR
Posts: 12,107
Total Cats: 518
Default

Attached Thumbnails
Some Help in Understanding Different Megasquirts-52651481.jpg   Some Help in Understanding Different Megasquirts-52651481.jpg  
curly is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-17-2014, 01:01 PM   #20
Murderator
iTrader: (76)
 
18psi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 36,186
Total Cats: 2,582
Default

Ok, so here's my initial reaction:

First - You need an MS3 Basic or newer/better. Because VVT. Don't waste your time with the vvtuner, its a stupid hack you don't want to deal with. You want onboard VVT control, and of the systems listed so far, everything MS3 based is what you should consider. Forget about diypnp, mspnp, ms1, 2, all tha other stuff.

Second - Get something supported by a reputable vendor. Reverant is awesome. So is DIYautotune. Scott is awesome also (when he's in the mood to be teehee )
This gets you a solid base map, and plenty of support should you not know what to do with it.

Start reading MSextra and the threads on here. You want to ingest as much ms3 specific info as possible, but a lot of the stuff from ms1/2/etc will apply, such as general VE table, spark table, and other "general" table and tuning info. Lastly, purchase Tuner Studio and Megalogviewer, because well, they are awesome and the #1 thing everyone ever needs with megasquirt.
18psi is offline   Reply With Quote
 
 
Reply

Related Topics
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
My solution for Oiltemp and Oilpressure input into Megasuirt (MS3) Zaphod MEGAsquirt 41 01-24-2016 01:25 PM
Any pnp megasquirt for 2001 Big_gumby WTB 0 09-30-2015 04:34 PM
1996 Turbo Build Goldwar DIY Turbo Discussion 2 09-29-2015 10:20 AM
Interpreting Deatchwerks Dead Times from Battery Wizard compuw22c MEGAsquirt 0 09-14-2015 07:08 PM
VE values too low? compuw22c MEGAsquirt 4 09-12-2015 08:42 PM


Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -4. The time now is 01:22 PM.