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1.6l: SMOKING. Built bottom end, smoke out of oil dipstick/valve cover
So just got a built bottom end. Top end was refreshed with 3 angle valve job and all new seals. Motor has 400 miles on it. Just recently started smoking.
Mostly smokes after idling for more than a minute. As soon as I hit the throttle there is a huge puff of blue smoke. Vents on valve cover have smoke coming out of them as well as oil dip stick hole. Lots of pressure coming out of dip stick and valve cover. When I put my hand over valve cover vents or dip stick pressure corresponds to the exhaust note. Any ideas? |
yup, you f'd up
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Any particular things I f-Ed up that would cause this? Other than driving the car nicely for all 400 miles and changing oil at 200 miles?
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Driving nicely for 400 miles is probably the problem. It sounds backwards, but your kinda supposed to beat on it a bit. Your situations sounds worse than rings not seating though. Is it possible that rings were not installed correctly? Youve clearly got blowby from a piston/ring issue. Only way to get smoke into the crankcase.
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Yup, sounds like either rings or valves are massively leaking. Probably rings due to pressurized crankcase
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I read all kinds of stuff, from drive it nice to beat the ---- out of it. To be honest I think its all bull ----. I drove it like I usually drive my cars. Normal. I kept it under 5psi of boost and tried to vary speed and not drive it on hwy for at least first 100 miles. Tried to accelerate and decelerate in all gears.
The engine was put together by a professional but anything could be possible. |
So probably the rings just did not seat?
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Originally Posted by Rushin
(Post 875877)
I read all kinds of stuff, from drive it nice to beat the ---- out of it. To be honest I think its all bull ----. I drove it like I usually drive my cars. Normal. I kept it under 5psi of boost and tried to vary speed and not drive it on hwy for at least first 100 miles. Tried to accelerate and decelerate in all gears.
The engine was put together by a professional but anything could be possible. I think your problem is you effed something up during assembly |
I did not assemble anything. The whole motor was put assembled for me. I just attached accessories and shoved it back in. I did zero assembly.
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then talk to the person you got it from
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He is just as confused as I am. That's why I am posting to see if anybody else had an issue similar to this.
I feel like the rings just did not seat at all. |
Wrong size rings after overbore? Ie 84 mm pistons with rings for 83.5mm pistons. Not sure if this is possible. Or block overborrd too much? Just speculating.
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All is possible:-(. Question is how do I isolate the issue without tearing the engine apart?
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leakdown test
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Good news is that it sounds like it might be more of a pain in the ass than expensive. If rings, then probably a quick hone and new rings.
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Doing that tomorrow. What should I be looking for in the leak down test?
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Originally Posted by djp0623
(Post 875900)
Good news is that it sounds like it might be more of a pain in the ass than expensive. If rings, then probably a quick hone and new rings.
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Originally Posted by Rushin
(Post 875903)
Yeah, but this will require pulling the motor again and taking it all apart again.
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Done it a couple of times now. Just don't want to do it again, that's all I am saying. Was not planning on this by any means.
Ita pretty much like rebuilding the block all over again. Head will most likely need to be resurfaced. All new seals on the block probably because it will has to come apart for honing. So I might as well just built another motor. |
Tell us about the tune. I had a customer come in last year for a dyno tune, and while the car was warming up it started smoking from the valve cover vent, and then a steady stream of smoke from the exhaust started up. Revving it made it worse, not better. Scoped the bores and found chunks of ringland missing in #4. Traced it to a major overboost+detonation condition.
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Tune is pretty muc what it was before when I had my stock motor. Very conservative road turn. E85, timing up top is same as it was before when I had higher compression motor, boost is low about 5 psi. Afr is about 11.5.
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Did a leak down. Under 15% loss. Only noise was from dipstick and oil cap
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Can somebody please move this into the right section. Trying to figure this issue out.
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Did the builder correctly stagger the rings?
Post a mod list, internals etc. Do you still have an egr valve? How does it run? Have you comp tested it as well? |
1.6 does not have EGR
Mod list is as follows: Supertech 8.1:1 pistons, scat rods, King bearings. Block was totally torn down and built from ground up. The rest of the mods are in my signature. |
Just sounds like the guy didn't build it correctly, idk what else to tell you?
Either he messed up the ring gap/staggering, the pistons/bores are out of spec or you somehow fucked up the break in. Does it all of a sudden run shittier than it did 200 miles ago? There is a guy BogusSVO that could probably help you out with specs and the like if you tear the motor down. |
Post your timig map.
If you are running e85 though not sure whats going on Also especially since it started after a few hundred miles. Whatever it is, you are fukked. Your rings prob. Tear down with the builder present. Take pics. Im sorry |
My timing map was very conservative. So that's not the issue most likely.
It still runs good. Just smokes that's all. If I only raced the car on a track I would leave it as is but I want to drive on a street and not have people telling me my car smokes. |
Originally Posted by Rushin
(Post 876726)
My timing map was very conservative. So that's not the issue most likely.
It still runs good. Just smokes that's all. If I only raced the car on a track I would leave it as is but I want to drive on a street and not have people telling me my car smokes. aside from hard driving, another method i was told, get in 2nd or 3rd gear, semi accelerate to red line, engine brake back down, and repeat several times but that was on a turbo 2.6l 4 cyl, cast block with heavy nickel cylinders |
I hear all kinds of ---- about breaking motors. It's all bs in my view. I did want my seposedly professional engine builder told me: drive it nicely for a while, they only detail he gave me was to keep it in gear when decelerating.
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The engine builder is saying something about "cylinder wash". He is saying that it possibly the car ran too rich first 100 miles or on first start up and the rings never seated. I have never heard of an issue like that. Anybody experienced this?
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Very very unlikely.
Did you brek in with conventional oil or synth? |
Originally Posted by Rushin
(Post 876779)
The engine builder is saying something about "cylinder wash". He is saying that it possibly the car ran too rich first 100 miles or on first start up and the rings never seated. I have never heard of an issue like that. Anybody experienced this?
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On your lasst tune, what boost pressure were you running?
What weight oil is in the engine now? is it Dino? syn? syn blend? Part of your issue sounds like bad valve stem seals, the puff of smoke on warm start up, and pull off from a stop light. Did you have vition blue stem seals? or run the cheap rubber ones found in most gasket kits? 15% leakdown isnt too bad, but not good either. What rings were used in the build? and what grit was the block honed with? If you have chrome-moly rings, the block should have been honed with a 360 grit stone Steel rings use a 220 grit Full chrome rings use a 400 grit Now if the block was finished honed say with a 220grit, then moly rings installed, this will rip the facing of the rings. This would cause some smoking and blowby. Now if it was finished with a 400 grit, and moly rings installed The rings will not seat on the too smooth surface of the cylinder. smoke and blowby will happen here too. Now what turbo is installed? What oil pressure is the turbo getting max? Also, what size oil return from the turbo? Have you cheked for kinks? Too much oil pressure, or too small oil return, can and will allow oil to build up in the turbo center allowing oil to leak into the turbo hot side that will cause smoke. When you did the leak down test, did you pinpoint where the leakage was? intake valve? Exhaust valves? or was it all past the rings? |
Originally Posted by BogusSVO
(Post 876839)
On your lasst tune, what boost pressure were you running?
With new motor I was and am running 5 psi. What weight oil is in the engine now? 5w30 castrol gtx is it Dino? syn? syn blend? Dino oil. Part of your issue sounds like bad valve stem seals, the puff of smoke on warm start up, and pull off from a stop light. Did you have vition blue stem seals? or run the cheap rubber ones found in most gasket kits? That I don't know for sure. I think they are vition seals 15% leakdown isnt too bad, but not good either. What is good leak down on a somewhat loose tolerance forged piston motor? What rings were used in the build? and what grit was the block honed with? All the builder told me its that they are Nippon rings. I asked him what metal they are and I don't think he knows. At least he did not specify when I asked if they were moli, steel of iron. If you have chrome-moly rings, the block should have been honed with a 360 grit stone Steel rings use a 220 grit Full chrome rings use a 400 grit Now if the block was finished honed say with a 220grit, then moly rings installed, this will rip the facing of the rings. This would cause some smoking and blowby. Now if it was finished with a 400 grit, and moly rings installed The rings will not seat on the too smooth surface of the cylinder. smoke and blowby will happen here too. Now what turbo is installed? What oil pressure is the turbo getting max? Turbo is original garret gt2554 from begi. Ita got about 5-7k miles on it. 8 inspected it before installing it and it looked perfect. It's a BB turbo so its got an internal restriction. It was primed when I first started the motor. Cracked the motor about 15 times (thee sets with 5 reps each) before giving it fuel and spark. Also, what size oil return from the turbo? Have you cheked for kinks? Pretty sure it's -4. Its the upgraded SS line from begi. No kinks drops right down to the oil pan. Too much oil pressure, or too small oil return, can and will allow oil to build up in the turbo center allowing oil to leak into the turbo hot side that will cause smoke. When you did the leak down test, did you pinpoint where the leakage was? intake valve? Exhaust valves? or was it all past the rings? |
i might have missed it but what are your compression numbers?
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175 across all cylinders.
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Fuk it.
I think you should just run more boost. |
definitely meth/water related
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What is meth/water related?
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Drove the car a little bit again today. I found a pretty long hill and did a long deceleration in 3rd. As soon as i hit the throttle at the bottom of the hill i got a good puff of smoke? Issue in the head?
And can somebody please move this thread where it should be. Please |
That is a classic sign of valve stem seals.... maybe the install of them was flubbed.
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Agreed^ do a visual check. You could pull the cams and used some compressed air to hold the valve shut, while making sure they're all seated- and make sure they're snug around the valve stem.
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But I get absolutely no smoke on cold start after the car sits for 2 days.
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If it was valve stem seals, which in my humle opinion it is not, you would have had smoke on colds start due to the simple reason the oil remaining in the head at engine shut down would sneak through fukked seals and make them cozy on the cylinder which will smoke like a crack pipe on cold start, although throttle up after in gear decelleration is clasic sign of fukked valve stem seals you need to see some castrol burning as well on cold start to confirm....:crx:(by the way I think a 5w -30 is a bit thin and think a 10w -40 would serve a greater purpose,just my 2c)
I agree with sav in this matter...I bet you dont want to hear it and my sincere apologies:crx:, but you either fukked up in build, or youre motor got hungry, skipped the Sonic and started chewing on the rings instead....my opinion you have an oil ring fukked either in one or more cylinder/s...remember compression check wil show condition or indicate wear of the top compression rings, and if youre seeing blue smoke which is tell tale of oil burning, and seeing sump compression, my humble submission is that a lower oil ring/s is MIA!:vash: BUT I AM A LAWYER BY TRADE AND NOT A PROFFESIONAL....THIS IS MY 2c AND I WOULD RATHER RECOMEND YOU LISTEN TO VERY EXPERIENCED VETERANS LIKE 18 PSI AND SAV....THIS IS JUST MY OPINION AND EXPERIENCE THUS FAR IN LIFE:noob: |
So what is now the thought on this? Oil control rings?
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I had bad valve seals in an ITA Miata and it didn't the cold start smoking. I think it's because the seals/guides sit up quite high compared the amount of oil that it's the head. Smoked between shifts/under vacuum. Pulling the cams and checking isn't that big of a deal compared to the alternative.
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Well, looks like I will start with valve seals. I talked to Corky Bell for about 45 minutes today and he said he has never seen bad valve seals on a Miata in 20 years. He is leaning more towards oil rings or turbo. I can't really be the turbo because I just checked it and it looked totally fine. And plus it smoke a ton under acceleration.
I will drop the downpipe tho this weekend or Thursday to see if there is any oil there. I really doubt it tho. |
Originally Posted by Rushin
(Post 880678)
Well, looks like I will start with valve seals. I talked to Corky Bell for about 45 minutes today and he said he has never seen bad valve seals on a Miata in 20 years. He is leaning more towards oil rings or turbo. I can't really be the turbo because I just checked it and it looked totally fine. And plus it smoke a ton under acceleration.
I will drop the downpipe tho this weekend or Thursday to see if there is any oil there. I really doubt it tho. time for a compression check with a shot of oil shortly after |
my versdict is YOU A BITCH SON
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hope that helps
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Originally Posted by skullzaflare
(Post 880698)
this makes a big difference bud, where as it COULD be turbo seals in this case (do you have a restrictor running to the turbo feed? if not it could be pushing to much pressure in. however im definitely leaning towards rings if thats not a typo
time for a compression check with a shot of oil shortly after |
So i ended up dropping the car off at the shop that built the motor. So far the guy thinks it could be my turbo because i dont have a restrictor in my turbo. But wouldn't the turbo smoke under acceleration if it was blowing oil past the rear seal?
Another thing he thinks it could be valve guides. He is saying its not his fault if its the guides even though he rebuilt the head. Not sure where to go with this. Could it be the guides? |
Sounds like your engine builder is retarded. Is he by any chance a she or possibly old and senile? I built my engine myself and it just... works.
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Pull motor, pull it apart, rebuild correctly.
Or you could waste another month wondering. If you paid the engine builder the going rate to rebuild the head and he's now saying that he's not responsible for xxx on the head, you need a new engine builder. |
The only way the rebuilder would NOT be at fault is if told you you needed guides and you said no.
Have you pulled the turbo elbow/DP and checked for oil on the turbine wheel? If no oil there then not turbo for the most part. I would also check the part number of the rings installed. Sometimes the compression rings will be the same, but the oil rings will differ. |
He has the at at his shop right now. He is checking the turbo. When I had him rebuild the head I told him to make sure everything is in top shape, if he said I need new valves or guides or anything I would have paid for them.
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What is the verdic?
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No verdict yet:-( should have the restrictor for the supply line on the turbo. Trying this first. Doubt it will fix the issue tho.
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So I guess the engine builder has absolutly no idea whats going on. All he told me is "maybe rings haven't sealed all the way" and "maybe the motor still needs to break in". I got about 500+ miles on the motor btw. So i guess i am just going to keep driving it.
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