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Old 01-25-2008, 04:21 AM   #41
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Damn, that's a really nice setup you have going there.
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Old 01-25-2008, 04:35 AM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Perez View Post
As to a larger tank elsewhere under the hood, that was my original idea. There just ain't space for it however. I couldn't even find a place to mount the pump in there, which is how it ended up inside the nose just ahead of the right front wheel.
REcently, with my head burried in something while doing wiring, I was looking at the front fenders, they are pretty hollow. Since your tank fills itself, you could use it there. But basically, I don't see anything wrong with your tank. It's a nice set up. Except what's the point of a DO over letting the MS do it?

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out of curiosity, anyone ever thought about using the truly wasted space in the passthrough areas between the cabin and trunk? It would keep the water closer to the CG of the car. The lines could also be shorter. Just a thought.
But then, where would I put my speakers? And where would I stuff my bagels when coming home from costco? (Jewish? Why do you ask?)
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Old 01-25-2008, 11:34 AM   #43
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REcently, with my head burried in something while doing wiring, I was looking at the front fenders, they are pretty hollow. Since your tank fills itself, you could use it there.
Fabricate a water tank to go inside the fender? Let me know how that works out.

Quote:
Except what's the point of a DO over letting the MS do it?
Well, I did this install nearly a year ago, for one. Didn't have an MS then.

Ultimately, I'd like to experiment with substituting the MS in place of the DO controller, keeping the DO pump, etc. Problem is that I still haven't seen a valve anywhere that is reasonably priced and will work at the PWM frequencies that the MS outputs for the WI, which is basically RPM/2.

Quote:
And where would I stuff my bagels when coming home from costco? (Jewish? Why do you ask?)
I've had the pax seat out for some time now, and it's really very convenient. Three cases of beer will fit neatly on the floor beside you, forming a platform for other essential foodstuffs to be placed atop, such as three additional cases of beer. Driving up to a place where a group of friends have congregated (such as the garage next to mine) with a Miata laden in this configuration is good for a laugh. And then they start drinking your beer.
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Old 01-27-2008, 01:27 AM   #44
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I plan to implement a bigger tank where my 1 gallon sits and put in an accumulator soon i let you all know how it goes. I am thinking with 4-5 gallons i will be abit happier
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Old 09-11-2009, 03:54 PM   #45
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Joe, that tank setup is ingenius indeed.

However, wouldn't it be simpler to gravity feed the rear tank from the one under the hood, and install the low level warning switch as well as the pump in the rear?
Less room for potential problems that way..

***

I am in the process of preparing my car for a water injection setup, and I have a come up with a solution for the limited tank room in my NB.
Trunk space is limited already, and I cannot afford losing any room there. Space behind the passenger seat is occupied by a large amp, as well...

This is what I have come up with:

There is a plastic lined "cubby hole" in the driver's side of the trunk. There's actually quite bit of room in there when you remove the plastic lining.
This location would be the main tank area. The top of that tank would be level with the trunk floor and maybe carpeted even.
There are also two rather large, almost pyramid shaped hollow spaces just to the front of the rear wheels.
In addition, There are some assorted hollow spaces on the underside of the trunk, specifically on the driver's side, away from the muffler. (I have a Borla, which takes up far less room than the stock muffler)

I am going to build about 5 (maybe more) custom water tanks out of copper sheeting, about 0.5 mm thick (0,02", or 24 gauge). I used that stuff before to make a large heatsink for the wideband O2, and it is easy to work with.
I will just build cardboard tank prototypes for the spaces I mentioned above, transfer the final shapes to copper sheeting, bend where necessary, and solder the rest.
I could use aluminum and have it welded, but I am cheap.
Next step would be joining the tanks via copper tubing, installing a level sensor on the bottom of the lowest tank and attach the pump there, as well.
A filler tube will be extended and plumbed (with a cap) next to the gas cap under the gas cap lid, and all of the tanks will have simple, check valve style air vents to prevent airlocking during fill ups.
The highest point will be the filler neck, and the lowest will be the tank with the pump attached.
A very rough estimate yields about a 5 gallon capacity for the combined tanks.

I attempted soldering the copper sheets together as soon as I had this idea, and it works. I have two pieces of copper sheets soldered at a right angle sitting next to the computer as I type this. I used a heat gun and a soldering gun, that's what I had lying around the house. I'll get a small torch for the actual work.

The idea of using the existing warning light in the dash is brilliant. I certainly would like to incorporate that into what I do, as well.

So far, that's my plan of action. Carrying more than 5 gallons of water onboard without losing any usable space in the car.

I drive on boost much of the time, (no speed limits on the freeways here) and I just do not want to run out of water on the freeway - it's a bitch to pull over and find water.

Any thoughts?
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Old 09-11-2009, 04:02 PM   #46
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OMFG...you're a god.
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Old 09-11-2009, 05:50 PM   #47
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+1 Hustler said it, you are truly amazing.
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Old 09-11-2009, 07:09 PM   #48
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Thanks guys..

Actually, I just got off the phone with a friend who happens to be an accomplished mechanical engineer.
He suggested I could actually use PVC, using a "hot air welding" technique. Apparently, you can run perfect, airtight plastic beads with this tool, and create any shape you like out of pvc. It is available in a variety of thicknesses and grades.

Here's another idea for making the reservoirs:

Place a durable trashbag inside, and then cover the bottom of those cavities mentioned in my earlier post with stiff cardboard/plywood, etc. Blow air in the trashbag (with care to prevent it from blowing) so it will unfold and settle in the cavity. Shoot expanding foam in the trash bag, let it cure. Then, remove the cured foam/trashbag, remove all plastic, and you have a "negative" of the cavity...
Trim the odd shapes to obtain a sensible shape with workable sides, use cardboard to make a prototype tank, and proceed with aluminum, copper or plastic as you wish.
Vent caps, nipples, interconnecting lines etc will of course be installed in the manner described in my earlier post. It also would not hurt to pad the reservoirs with foam or neprene.

I will do this one way or another and post all the developments with pics here.
I see no reason why it should not work flawlessly, because I happen to be stubborn as hell.
Please refer to the Bi-Xenon headlight conversion I made on my coffee table at home.
https://www.miataturbo.net/forum/t38930/#post451476
(Third picture down)

I have also come up with an interesting design to make a hand held hot air plastic welder.. I'll toy with the idea ro see what I can do.

BTW, I am thinking about getting the AEM progressive injection kit. (30-3000)
Still trying to find a good deal on one of those.
Any ideas, suggestions are welcome and appreciated.
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Old 09-12-2009, 03:20 AM   #49
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Yes, there's plenty of room in there. And I took the original carpeting to make a mold to give me a rough shape, then trimmed it till it JUST fit.

The power antena was the next limiting thing.

Pumps are for pussies, pressurize the tank with boost pressure. :-P And take pics.
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Old 09-12-2009, 09:12 AM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AbeFM View Post
Pumps are for pussies, pressurize the tank with boost pressure. :-P And take pics.
Why?

I want to run a progressive system where the amount of water changes with the conditions.
Air, fuel, temps, etc are wildy different in NA, transition, low boost and high boost conditions. Injection needs to start, say, at 2psi and max out at 12.
If I were to use boost pressure, 2-4 psi would produce all but a drip slightly worse than that of a horndog GI with a punchcard to a Hanoi brothel.
A decent injection system needs many times over the pressure generated by boost in normal driving conditions.
And it needs to be progressive. Can you imagine what would happen if your fuel system was not?

Oh yes, I will post pics, too.
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Old 09-12-2009, 09:23 AM   #51
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BTW, I like your sub solution, but I would be worried about damagaging it with whatever I put in the trunk.

I installed the largest possible speakers (8") with the deepest bass I have heard in car components in the back deck. They are pioneers actually, but they don't make them anymore. At 360 watts a piece, they are formidable. They leave no room - literally and figuratively - for subs.
I also replaced the door speakers with 250 Watt 6X9 Pioneers. Took some work and modifying, but I made adapters, and they rock. Tweeters in the doors are operational, too.
I then installed a 600 Watt amp to drive all that.
I listen to Pink Floyd, Tool and some commie bastard Turkish rock group called "Duman".

Holy crap..enough threaddrifting...
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Old 09-12-2009, 10:52 AM   #52
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Quote:
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I still haven't seen a valve anywhere that is reasonably priced and will work at the PWM frequencies that the MS outputs for the WI, which is basically RPM/2.
anything on this yet?
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Old 09-12-2009, 02:55 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by Godless Commie View Post
I installed the largest possible speakers (8") with the deepest bass I have heard in car components in the back deck. They are pioneers actually, but they don't make them anymore. At 360 watts a piece, they are formidable. They leave no room - literally and figuratively - for subs.
I also replaced the door speakers with 250 Watt 6X9 Pioneers. Took some work and modifying, but I made adapters, and they rock. Tweeters in the doors are operational, too.
I then installed a 600 Watt amp to drive all that.
Huh, I wanted to put in 6x9's but ended up with some infinity refrences for the doors, and I have these dinky 35W(rms) pioneers in the deck lid. I'd love to see pics of your set up, post them somewhere?

My amp is pretty solid. Overheating is an issue (it's a 1200 watt amp!), but it'd very solid, and up off the floor so nothing really hits is. The grill over the box is pretty solid as well, I've had some big stuff in the trunk and not had problems.

Make a thread about your stereo and link it here. :-)

So, the point is: Have you considered fiberglass? Wear clothes you're ok throwing out when you make it, and aside from taking some time to make, it comes out nice. Seems easier/lighter than copper, and no corrosion.

The idea is you put a nozzle (even two, one which works at lower pressure) and "inject" ahead of the turbo. Lots of people did this in the draw-through-carb set up days. My motorcycle had this for a while. And, spray would be proportional to boost pressure, reference the manifold.


If you're spending $8/gallon on gas to make 200 whp, you're doing something wrong. I'm guilty of this myself, but, try to worry less about doing it perfect and more about doing it well enough. The most famous quote of the guy whom they named the physics building after at my school, nobel prize and all, "Every experiment should be done as poorly as possible". Perhaps some dyno time? 5 tanks of gas saving's will pay for a half day dyno session, and you're sure to pick up 10-30 hp and be able to run on $3 gas (unless you live out of the US)
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Old 09-12-2009, 02:56 PM   #54
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Joe,
Do you HAVE to PWM the valve? Can you find an analog valve?
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Old 09-12-2009, 05:19 PM   #55
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Very nice dual tank set up with indicator light.Impressive
-G-
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Old 09-12-2009, 07:03 PM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AbeFM View Post
If you're spending $8/gallon on gas to make 200 whp, you're doing something wrong. I'm guilty of this myself, but, try to worry less about doing it perfect and more about doing it well enough. The most famous quote of the guy whom they named the physics building after at my school, nobel prize and all, "Every experiment should be done as poorly as possible". Perhaps some dyno time? 5 tanks of gas saving's will pay for a half day dyno session, and you're sure to pick up 10-30 hp and be able to run on $3 gas (unless you live out of the US)
Believe me, I am not doing anything wrong.. It's just that 8.25/gal happens to be the price everyone pays for good ol' gas here in Istanbul, Turkey. Hell, it used to be damn near 11 bucks for a while..
All Turkish drivers are truly pissed off by the fact that what they are burning in their engines is the most expensive fossil fuel in the planet.
Most, no almost all cabs are running LPG conversions. The conversion sector is huge here.

OTOH, I know full well I have about 50 more ponies to let out of the barn, so to speak. It's just that I am being as conservative I can with the preciously expensive and yet crappy fuel we have available here. No need to burn/break stuff.
That's why I need water injection. That way I can keep logging and tweaking with some decent headroom.
Besides, I still bury the speedo needle on the freeway with the way the car is now..
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Old 09-12-2009, 11:35 PM   #57
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godless commie the wi most certianly does not have to be progressive it justhas to be sized correctly my setup is a prime example of this with 1 nozzle you can flow enough WI to totally max out that litle mp62 you have there without being progresive. You people from Constantinoble are weird btw. If you know your system you will know the usage aprox per minute of boost and then you should plan aroun this. I for example carry up to 5 gallons extra water if i want to go somewhere far away most of the time.
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Old 09-13-2009, 06:46 AM   #58
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If I need to carry a five gallon tank in my trunk, it just defeats the purpose of having a trunk in the first place. I cannot put anything else in there.

Guess I am weird that way.
One trip to Metro (kinda like Costco) fills up the trunk to the brim.
We do take mini vacations, and put our stuff in the trunk.
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Old 09-13-2009, 01:15 PM   #59
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i put the extra in the seat next to me man.
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Old 09-13-2009, 01:44 PM   #60
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i put the extra in the seat next to me man.
Another way of saying you're single I guess..

My wife uses that seat.
Seriously, we have succesfully carried a large table for eight, an 8 1/2 foot tall tree for the house, assorted pieces of furniture, 8 racks of wine glasses and more bulky and weird stuff at one point or other in or on this car...
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