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Old 10-29-2010, 12:11 PM   #1
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Default Educate me on WI and stock ECU

My setup is (don't laugh, it's enough to make me grin)

2000NB, SuperchargedMP62 @ 6psi max, Base Powercard and stock ECU, J&S Safeguard, Dual TB, stock Radiator, A/C and Stock Exhaust

I wondering whether I can use WI in place of an intercooler install without changing anything else.

I have heat issues only in high ambient temps with A/C on and at 65-70mph on the highway.
I track about 4 times a yea and AutoX 10-12, the rest of the time is spirited DD. I don't have heat issues at the track.
I've noticed in the Fall and Spring that the cooler ambient gives me more butt-dyno power.

Since I have no tunable solution to engine management-
a) Water is better than Water/Meth since I cannot control fuel?
b) WI would mean that the J&S would "see" less knock and therefore pull less timing?
c) WI would reduce combustion temperature and hence reduce my occasional heat problem?
d) WI would produce a butt-dyno effect similar to the cooler Fall/Spring ambient temperatures?
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Old 10-29-2010, 12:40 PM   #2
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WI will not solve your engine temps problem. It will solve problems associated with air intake temperature and give you the opportunity to produce more power. More power will produce higher engine temps (not lower) which will further aggrevate your overheating problem.

WI and Intercooler are two unique systems designed for the same end result. You can use WI for nearly any application in the place of an intercooler setup.

Your problem with freeway A/C is related to the ability of your heat exchangers to shed heat energy. Your radiator is hot, and cold air passing through the hot radiator cools it down. When you turn your A/C on, not only are you adding additional load to the engine, but you are also putting a great big source of heat in front of your radiator. Now instead of cold air cooling the hot radiator, you have hot air cooling the hot radiator. There are three possible solutions to this problem:

1. Get a better radiator
2. Improve the medium through which the radiator flows
3. Don't use your A/C

The principles behind 1 and 3 are so simple, a caveman's dingleberry could understand them.

Here are the ways to work on 2:
a) Get colder air through the heat exchangers
b) Get a higher volume of ambient-temp air through the heat exchangers

Since it will be really hard to do a) above, lets focus on b):

Step 1: ensure your factory plastic black undertray has not been removed
Step 2: ensure that the ONLY air inlet for the engine bay is the big hole in the front of your car. The engine bay needs to be a low-pressure zone. If you have lifted the back of your hood or removed the rubber seal at the back of your hood PUT IT BACK. Air is not flowing out here, it is flowing in, which increases your engine bay pressure at speed and reduces the amount of air that comes in through the radiator.
Step 3: ensure your fans work well
Step 4: if your license plate is covering the big hole in the front of your car, move it somewhere else (side mount)
Step 5: duct your heat exchangers so that ALL of the air that comes in through that big hole in the front is FORCED to travel through your radiator
Step 6: find ways to improve air extraction from your engine bay: Extraction hoods are designed for this very purpose.

I made it all the way to step 6 (extraction hood) before I was able to completely eliminate my Highway + A/C overheating problem - now my temps DROP when I turn the A/C on while going down the highway.
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Old 10-31-2010, 09:17 PM   #3
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Thanks for your response, very informative. It stirred up so follow up questions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fooger03 View Post
WI will not solve your engine temps problem. It will solve problems associated with air intake temperature and give you the opportunity to produce more power. More power will produce higher engine temps (not lower) which will further aggrevate your overheating problem.
Given that I am happy with the power I currently have (silly, I know) would it not stand to reason that lower intake temps will translate to lower overall heat generation?

Quote:
Originally Posted by fooger03 View Post
WI and Intercooler are two unique systems designed for the same end result. You can use WI for nearly any application in the place of an intercooler setup.
Same question as above I guess, an IC and by inference, WI should reduce overall heat generation given no increases in power are attempted?

Quote:
Originally Posted by fooger03 View Post
Your problem with freeway A/C is related to the ability of your heat exchangers to shed heat energy. Your radiator is hot, and cold air passing through the hot radiator cools it down. When you turn your A/C on, not only are you adding additional load to the engine, but you are also putting a great big source of heat in front of your radiator. Now instead of cold air cooling the hot radiator, you have hot air cooling the hot radiator. There are three possible solutions to this problem:

1. Get a better radiator
2. Improve the medium through which the radiator flows
3. Don't use your A/C

The principles behind 1 and 3 are so simple, a caveman's dingleberry could understand them.
This is why I don't really want to add another heat source in the form of an IC. Sooner or later I'll have to break-down and buy that better radiator.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fooger03 View Post
Here are the ways to work on 2:
a) Get colder air through the heat exchangers
b) Get a higher volume of ambient-temp air through the heat exchangers

Since it will be really hard to do a) above, lets focus on b):

Step 1: ensure your factory plastic black undertray has not been removed
Not removed and the radiator drain cutout has been covered.
Quote:
Originally Posted by fooger03 View Post
Step 2: ensure that the ONLY air inlet for the engine bay is the big hole in the front of your car. The engine bay needs to be a low-pressure zone. If you have lifted the back of your hood or removed the rubber seal at the back of your hood PUT IT BACK. Air is not flowing out here, it is flowing in, which increases your engine bay pressure at speed and reduces the amount of air that comes in through the radiator.
Hood not lifted, rubber seal in place and conditioned regularly.
Quote:
Originally Posted by fooger03 View Post
Step 3: ensure your fans work well
Checked, cleaned and parallel fan modification completed - I added LEDs in the cabin to show when the fans are tripped.
Quote:
Originally Posted by fooger03 View Post
Step 4: if your license plate is covering the big hole in the front of your car, move it somewhere else (side mount)
Done, moved completely out of the hole and custom mounted to the bumper cover.
Quote:
Originally Posted by fooger03 View Post
Step 5: duct your heat exchangers so that ALL of the air that comes in through that big hole in the front is FORCED to travel through your radiator
I need to do this.
Quote:
Originally Posted by fooger03 View Post
Step 6: find ways to improve air extraction from your engine bay: Extraction hoods are designed for this very purpose.

I made it all the way to step 6 (extraction hood) before I was able to completely eliminate my Highway + A/C overheating problem - now my temps DROP when I turn the A/C on while going down the highway.
I'm trying to avoid the Modified look that an extractor would impart, nothing wrong with the look - just not my preference.

To extend my original question. If I don't try for more power, will adding the intake cooling effect of WI reduce overall heat generation?
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Old 11-01-2010, 09:38 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BarbyCar View Post
Given that I am happy with the power I currently have (silly, I know) would it not stand to reason that lower intake temps will translate to lower overall heat generation?

I would argue that the increase in heat from the extra power generated would make the decrease in intake temperatures negligible.

Same question as above I guess, an IC and by inference, WI should reduce overall heat generation given no increases in power are attempted?

No. Reducing the air temperature in the intake will serve to increase the amount of air mass that gets into your cylinders by increasing density. To compensate, your engine will be injecting more fuel and thus creating more power. As already discussed, more power = more heat. There are things that you can do to counter the increase in power:
  1. Retard timing - this will move a little bit of heat out of your combustion chamber and into your head and exhaust manifold. I wouldn't recommend doing this because the amount of heat reduction would be negligible but the amount of power lost will be significant.
  2. Run leaner - unfortunately lean = heat, and you dont want that
  3. Reduce the amount of air that makes it to your engine so you can reduce the amount of fuel burned and directly reduce the amount of heat energy. What this means: Remove the supercharger.


This is why I don't really want to add another heat source in the form of an IC. Sooner or later I'll have to break-down and buy that better radiator.

To extend my original question. If I don't try for more power, will adding the intake cooling effect of WI reduce overall heat generation?
Does that supercharger have a bypass valve? It it working? You may want to investigate this.

Check to make sure you're not running 100% antifreeze in the radiator.

Duct your radiator to force more air through it.

Take 2- 3" of fuel line, pull a coolant line off of your heater core, cover the fuel line with white lithium grease, and then shove the fuel line into the coolant line. Reinstall the coolant line to the heater core. This will force slightly more coolant through the radiator.

Break down and buy that better radiator. A lot of people view a better radiator as a NECESSARY supporting modification when increasing power with a blower. Perhaps it is time for you to see a radiator in this light, instead of how you currently see a radiator: an extra expenditure to be avoided at all costs.
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Old 11-01-2010, 12:18 PM   #5
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Didn't read the above posts (cause they're too longa and its too early in the morning for me)

but

If you're having heat issues only at certain speeds of a highway cruise how will w/i help that? Its not like you can activate it between "65-70 continuously at part throttle". Even if you could that would be retarded.


I think you have problems that need to be adressed first that have to do with a fault in your setup.
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Old 11-01-2010, 03:19 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fooger03 View Post
WI will not solve your engine temps problem. It will solve problems associated with air intake temperature and give you the opportunity to produce more power. More power will produce higher engine temps (not lower) which will further aggrevate your overheating problem.

WI and Intercooler are two unique systems designed for the same end result. You can use WI for nearly any application in the place of an intercooler setup.

Your problem with freeway A/C is related to the ability of your heat exchangers to shed heat energy. Your radiator is hot, and cold air passing through the hot radiator cools it down. When you turn your A/C on, not only are you adding additional load to the engine, but you are also putting a great big source of heat in front of your radiator. Now instead of cold air cooling the hot radiator, you have hot air cooling the hot radiator. There are three possible solutions to this problem:

1. Get a better radiator
2. Improve the medium through which the radiator flows
3. Don't use your A/C

The principles behind 1 and 3 are so simple, a caveman's dingleberry could understand them.

Here are the ways to work on 2:
a) Get colder air through the heat exchangers
b) Get a higher volume of ambient-temp air through the heat exchangers

Since it will be really hard to do a) above, lets focus on b):

Step 1: ensure your factory plastic black undertray has not been removed
Step 2: ensure that the ONLY air inlet for the engine bay is the big hole in the front of your car. The engine bay needs to be a low-pressure zone. If you have lifted the back of your hood or removed the rubber seal at the back of your hood PUT IT BACK. Air is not flowing out here, it is flowing in, which increases your engine bay pressure at speed and reduces the amount of air that comes in through the radiator.
Step 3: ensure your fans work well
Step 4: if your license plate is covering the big hole in the front of your car, move it somewhere else (side mount)
Step 5: duct your heat exchangers so that ALL of the air that comes in through that big hole in the front is FORCED to travel through your radiator
Step 6: find ways to improve air extraction from your engine bay: Extraction hoods are designed for this very purpose.

I made it all the way to step 6 (extraction hood) before I was able to completely eliminate my Highway + A/C overheating problem - now my temps DROP when I turn the A/C on while going down the highway.
+1 for the best answer to a simple question I have ever seen. (no homo)
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Old 12-19-2010, 03:05 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BarbyCar View Post

Given that I am happy with the power I currently have (silly, I know) would it not stand to reason that lower intake temps will translate to lower overall heat generation?


Same question as above I guess, an IC and by inference, WI should reduce overall heat generation given no increases in power are attempted?
The cooler intake charge would mean denser air making a more explosive mixture in the combustion chamber make more power and therefore more heat. So it would likely worsen the highway A/C heat problem.
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Old 12-19-2010, 04:53 PM   #8
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tl;dr most of it
What I can tell you is that water injection won't lower your coolant temps.
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Old 12-21-2010, 05:54 AM   #9
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IF you want WI to lower your temps, then you need to stick a nozzle in front of your radiator. The only way for it to decrease your radiator temps is if, one, you use so much fluid that you cause the combustion to stifle, thus not putting as much heat in the exhaust, and in the engine, or if two, you spray before the blower, and the blower cools off, SLIGHTLY, probably imperceptibly decreasing the temperature of the engine bay.
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Old 12-21-2010, 08:21 AM   #10
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Have you done a coolant reroute? I would do that and ducting, personally.
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Old 12-21-2010, 10:50 AM   #11
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Reroute=not done.
The car is sleeping for the winter so I should have chance to get some ducting done. I still have the stock Rad too and many have recommended that it get replaced.

Thanks to all for your collective insights on this.
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Old 12-23-2010, 11:42 PM   #12
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Something's not right, you shouldn't overheat on the highway at 70mph with the AC on.

-Stock undertray in place?
-Radiator's not clogged?
-No system leaks (holds pressure)?
-Coolant is fresh?

Bigger radiator, reroute, etc. are all great ways to solve overheating with FI on the track - if you're overheating on the highway where the supercharger isn't really doing anything, there's a more basic problem that should be solved with basic methods. Adding a big radiator/reroute would just be a bandaid.
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Old 12-26-2010, 02:38 PM   #13
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Looking at your setup I'd go with clogged rad.
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Old 12-26-2010, 03:11 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BarbyCar View Post
Reroute=not done.
The car is sleeping for the winter so I should have chance to get some ducting done. I still have the stock Rad too and many have recommended that it get replaced.

Thanks to all for your collective insights on this.
Give me a call when you want the parts to fix it ... I happen to have a reroute kit and it is less than a 30 minute drive from you
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