How will the water/mixture temperature affect the WI cooling effect? - Miata Turbo Forum - Boost cars, acquire cats.

Welcome to Miataturbo.net   Members
 


Methanol/Water Injection Place to talk about meth/water injection.

Reply
 
 
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 06-09-2009, 05:35 PM   #1
Newb
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 10
Total Cats: 0
Default How will the water/mixture temperature affect the WI cooling effect?

I put my water tank near the hotside due to that I have a FFS Coldside setup on my RHD miata. I found the water / mixture temperature would go high like 140+ F which may be higher than the charged air itself. The question is will this hot water/mixture being sprayed into the IM warming up the charged air rather than cooling?

Since I found the performance is even worse (feeling only, not dyno) when I turn on the WI system. Is that a good idea to relocate the water tank to the truck?

Another question is... the IAT under 16 psi can go up to 210F without intercooler, is this a proper figure at all?? I think it's horrible
ckkcmx5 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-09-2009, 05:45 PM   #2
Boost Pope
iTrader: (8)
 
Joe Perez's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Chicago (Over two miles from Wrigley Field. Fuck the Cubs. Fuck them in their smarmy goat-hole.)
Posts: 26,317
Total Cats: 1,914
Default

I doubt seriously that the water being at 140F is going to have much of a detrimental effect on things.

As to the performance falling off, I guess a couple of questions would be in order. Have you done anything tuning-wise (such as advancing the timing) to accommodate the WI?

Give us some details on your kit. Nozzle size, control system, etc.
Joe Perez is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-09-2009, 05:51 PM   #3
Supporting Vendor
iTrader: (31)
 
Savington's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Sunnyvale, CA
Posts: 14,362
Total Cats: 1,323
Default

The benefit lost is miniscule. The amount of heat energy required to elevate the water from 140 to 212 degrees is stupidly small compared to the amount of energy required to transform it into a gas.
Savington is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-09-2009, 10:27 PM   #4
Newb
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 10
Total Cats: 0
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Perez View Post
I doubt seriously that the water being at 140F is going to have much of a detrimental effect on things.

As to the performance falling off, I guess a couple of questions would be in order. Have you done anything tuning-wise (such as advancing the timing) to accommodate the WI?

Give us some details on your kit. Nozzle size, control system, etc.
I basically use the AEM kit. I tried the AEM 130cc nozzle mount in the middle position of the FFS IM but no good at the beginning. So I replaced the FFS E-cool injector with the DO Inside Mount Nozzles ~180 cc/min. It should get better distribution there but result is about the same.

I have MSPNP on my 94 miata and also KnockSenseMS but I found the knock signal is kinda not accurate even I have followed all the instruction to calibrate the sensor. I can't hear any knock but KnockSense keep telling me knocking happen somewhere from 5psi to 16psi. The knock won't stop as long as I stay at that boost area, and it keep retard the timing. I then changed the spark table like running 12 degree on the 180kpa row but still got knock signal and it retarded the timing up to 8 degree and I was running at 4 degree advance at boost!! I only know I'm safe but it run like crab... haaa

After I setup the water injection, the knock signal behave the same. So I just ignore the knock sensor and run 18 degree on the 180kpa row. It run a lot better there, but with the WI I can't feel the engine running any better, actually it run even worse. It does not help to reduce knock at all according to my KnockSenseMS, and I dare not to take more advance on the boost area.

P.S. I set my AEM controller to spray starting from 2 PSI to 16 PSI MAX. And I have removed the nozzle and tested, it spray well.

Any idea??
ckkcmx5 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-09-2009, 10:40 PM   #5
Newb
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 10
Total Cats: 0
Default

ckkcmx5 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-09-2009, 10:52 PM   #6
Junior Member
iTrader: (2)
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Western N.C.
Posts: 447
Total Cats: 1
Default

I had to set my progressive controller threshold a little higher, I found that onset below 6PSI caused me to have a slight stumble.
Milton Tucker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-10-2009, 03:44 AM   #7
Newb
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 10
Total Cats: 0
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Milton Tucker View Post
I had to set my progressive controller threshold a little higher, I found that onset below 6PSI caused me to have a slight stumble.
Thx. I will try set it higher. Coz I feel stumble from 5psi to 16psi whenever the WI is on.
ckkcmx5 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-11-2009, 01:42 PM   #8
:(
iTrader: (7)
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: nowhere
Posts: 8,281
Total Cats: 2
Default

Post a log of your AFR before and after. I am thinking either you have to much or to little WI did you verify your line pressure in relation to the pressure the nozzle is rated at? Alil math will help you here. A little math skills can help us troubleshoot for you.
magnamx-5 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-12-2009, 02:42 PM   #9
Newb
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 10
Total Cats: 0
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by magnamx-5 View Post
Post a log of your AFR before and after. I am thinking either you have to much or to little WI did you verify your line pressure in relation to the pressure the nozzle is rated at? Alil math will help you here. A little math skills can help us troubleshoot for you.

Still do not have a chance to do the log.

Anyway I discover that I'm using a 2 GPH (126 ml/min) nozzle instead which is rated at 100psi. And I think AEM use the same 150psi pump as DO. So those nozzle should produce similar result. Is such size suitable for 180-210hp output?
ckkcmx5 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-14-2009, 02:20 PM   #10
:(
iTrader: (7)
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: nowhere
Posts: 8,281
Total Cats: 2
Default

jsut cause the pump is rated at 150 psi doesnt mean it is set there. 2gph is no enough to get the job done you need atleast 3.
100/150= square rooted1.5= 1.22*2= 2.44 gph even at 150 psi you are to little. Get a 3gph nozzle and check your pressure settings by dead heading a oilpressure or similiar gauge on the WI line and turning the pump on.
magnamx-5 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-29-2009, 04:06 AM   #11
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Naka, Japan & Georgetown, Texas
Posts: 128
Total Cats: 0
Default

The m2 will run like an m3 because of the pressure. It will be closer to 200 psi rather than the 150 psi the pump is rated at, unless you are using the new style shuflo pump that actually adjusts pressure.

http://www.alcohol-injection.com/for....html#post8227
Dust is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-29-2009, 09:56 AM   #12
Boost Pope
iTrader: (8)
 
Joe Perez's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Chicago (Over two miles from Wrigley Field. Fuck the Cubs. Fuck them in their smarmy goat-hole.)
Posts: 26,317
Total Cats: 1,914
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dust View Post
unless you are using the new style shuflo pump that actually adjusts pressure.
?

All shurflo pumps have a pressure cutoff switch on them, which "regulates" pressure to within a certain window. IOW, the pump turns on, pressure builds enough to open the switch, the pump turns off, pressure drops, the pump turns on, etc.

I'd thought that the setting of this switch was adjustable, at least within a certain range, on all shurflo pumps.

Still not the same thing as actually regulating the pressure accurately. But then WI right now is such an imprecisely implemented thing anyway.
Joe Perez is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-11-2009, 01:46 AM   #13
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Naka, Japan & Georgetown, Texas
Posts: 128
Total Cats: 0
Default

the link I posted is the pressure that the previous 150 psi pumps got up with the noted installed nozzle. Meaning that just because it is called a 150 psi pump, doesn't mean that it shuts off at 150 psi.


M2 230psi = 2.9GPH
M3 225psi = 4.2GPH
M4 215psi = 5.5GPH
M5 190psi = 6.7GPH
M7 180psi = 9.0GPH
M10 170psi = 12.5GPH


Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Perez View Post
Still not the same thing as actually regulating the pressure accurately. But then WI right now is such an imprecisely implemented thing anyway.
Nothing some PWM solenoids and a controller tied to the spark signal couldn't fix

Last edited by Dust; 08-11-2009 at 02:08 AM.
Dust is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-11-2009, 02:18 AM   #14
:(
iTrader: (7)
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: nowhere
Posts: 8,281
Total Cats: 2
Default

iono where you got your figures i gues its line pressure peak numbers, but if what you are posting is true then the adjustability on the pump for pressure is a null effect.

I theorize however that you just turned your pump all the way up and recorded peak line pressure do to resistance etc, of outflow capacity and this in turn skewed your results. Cause i know my sureflo 150 psi model that is the industry standard for 9/10 kits is in fact adjustable in pressure and it makes a differance in spray patern and flow. From my years of experience and initial testing of the system in my setup and R&D phase.
magnamx-5 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-11-2009, 03:01 AM   #15
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Naka, Japan & Georgetown, Texas
Posts: 128
Total Cats: 0
Default

These numbers were posted by the owner of Devil's Own. Yes, the pressure of the pumps can be adjusted, and yes, they are the standard, but it seems that the 150 is maybe with a set restriction, rather than a nozzle. I don't know why, just know what has been posted. Scroll to the top of the thread and you can see how he did the test.
Dust is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-11-2009, 03:42 AM   #16
:(
iTrader: (7)
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: nowhere
Posts: 8,281
Total Cats: 2
Default

I see what you are saying now but to not verify your own spray patern and line pressure with every new install is asking for disaster. Those are key variables that control your flow and overall cooling with out knowing them you might as well be using a super saoker to meter the water, as you will have no clue as to your consumption or relative limits until you have gone well past what is safe.
magnamx-5 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-11-2009, 03:46 AM   #17
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Naka, Japan & Georgetown, Texas
Posts: 128
Total Cats: 0
Default

I'm not trying to claim them as what the OP will get, just to show that the numbers on the nozzle will not be the numbers into the engine, unless using an on demand 100 psi pump
Dust is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-11-2009, 03:53 AM   #18
:(
iTrader: (7)
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: nowhere
Posts: 8,281
Total Cats: 2
Default

its no big dust ive always wondered what my standard fluctuation was with 1 stage and 2 stages engaged a discusion like this makes me wanna plumb in a gauge and run some tests but i doubt i will anytime soon just one more thing i need to do before my car is finished i guese.
magnamx-5 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-11-2009, 04:26 AM   #19
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Naka, Japan & Georgetown, Texas
Posts: 128
Total Cats: 0
Default

I have a busted tire pump gauge, but I don't know if it would take to water pressure too well.
Dust is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-11-2009, 02:37 PM   #20
:(
iTrader: (7)
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: nowhere
Posts: 8,281
Total Cats: 2
Default

like i said i used a oil pressure gauge or a fuel pressure gauge would work as well prob better.
magnamx-5 is offline   Reply With Quote
 
 
Reply

Related Topics
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
My solution for Oiltemp and Oilpressure input into Megasuirt (MS3) Zaphod MEGAsquirt 41 01-24-2016 01:25 PM
SimExperience fiberglass race seat in Chicago area chris101 Miata parts for sale/trade 2 10-09-2015 10:08 AM
MSPNPPro-MM0105: Coolant Temperature Output slomiata MEGAsquirt 5 10-07-2015 02:11 PM
Expected intake temps on the track? tazswing Race Prep 20 10-03-2015 12:04 PM


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -4. The time now is 08:01 PM.