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Old 10-23-2007, 11:05 AM   #41
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Well was just a quick search.

anyone that wants to try it out, call us so we can can sort this out.

David
I really don't think utilising the Idle control is worth persuing. For a start you'd lose Idle control, you wouldn't have much control over the amount of water injected either.

I've asked the frequency question on msextra.com

thread linky
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Old 10-23-2007, 11:07 AM   #42
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I think everyone mis understood and frankly its my fault. Im very busy here, I did a quick search and did not read it carefuly.

CM
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Old 10-23-2007, 11:20 AM   #43
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I think everyone mis understood and frankly its my fault. Im very busy here, I did a quick search and did not read it carefuly.

CM
That's fair enough, you're also very green on MS so how were you to know. that's why I've asked the question on a specific MS site.
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Old 10-24-2007, 05:22 PM   #44
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Disclaimer: I'm a MS newbie.

As far as I understand it, the MS1/Extra WI output gives a square wave signal that matches the fuel injector pulse i.e. the same frequency and duty cycle. The number of FI events per crank revolution is configurable but I expect that 1 injection event per crank revolution (i.e. 2 per engine cycle, alternating banks) would be typical. So for a typical engine running up to 6k rpm that would correspond to a maximum of either 50Hz or 100Hz. Having many more injector events per cycle is probably a bad idea because of the difficulty in getting accurate fuel metering at idle.

If I've understood you correctly the new HSVs you're considering are designed to act as proprtional valves at a much higher frequency. If you're using Aquamist style jets I don't know how well that will work; I can imagine these jets producing a very poor droplet pattern at lower supply pressure - perhaps you will end up with a dribble rather than a spray. Pulsing between fully on and fully off would probably work better. Is that something that is feasible with the new HSVs you're discussing?

PS first post here, Hi
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Old 10-24-2007, 05:53 PM   #45
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Our Valve has a nice advantage as can be both positional or on time/ off time. Positionary will give you far better results. Using on/off you will have a hard time to get rid of pulsing. When using positionary you will get a nice steady pulse free stream. If you wish to do an on/off style setup, by all means this valve can do it. Its very fast.

As a side note, Vari-cool has the ability to hook up to your computer, you can set the MIN dutycycle (as well as max and the curve). If you have a large nozzle, we recommend to move the dutycycle from 25% to 32% for the very reason you suggest.

The frequency range of the soleniod is 300 to 15,000 HZ.


CM

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Originally Posted by GreenV8S View Post
Disclaimer: I'm a MS newbie.

As far as I understand it, the MS1/Extra WI output gives a square wave signal that matches the fuel injector pulse i.e. the same frequency and duty cycle. The number of FI events per crank revolution is configurable but I expect that 1 injection event per crank revolution (i.e. 2 per engine cycle, alternating banks) would be typical. So for a typical engine running up to 6k rpm that would correspond to a maximum of either 50Hz or 100Hz. Having many more injector events per cycle is probably a bad idea because of the difficulty in getting accurate fuel metering at idle.

If I've understood you correctly the new HSVs you're considering are designed to act as proprtional valves at a much higher frequency. If you're using Aquamist style jets I don't know how well that will work; I can imagine these jets producing a very poor droplet pattern at lower supply pressure - perhaps you will end up with a dribble rather than a spray. Pulsing between fully on and fully off would probably work better. Is that something that is feasible with the new HSVs you're discussing?

PS first post here, Hi
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Old 10-26-2007, 05:47 PM   #46
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Our Valve has a nice advantage as can be both positional or on time/ off time. Positionary will give you far better results. Using on/off you will have a hard time to get rid of pulsing. When using positionary you will get a nice steady pulse free stream. If you wish to do an on/off style setup, by all means this valve can do it. Its very fast.

As a side note, Vari-cool has the ability to hook up to your computer, you can set the MIN dutycycle (as well as max and the curve). If you have a large nozzle, we recommend to move the dutycycle from 25% to 32% for the very reason you suggest.

The frequency range of the soleniod is 300 to 15,000 HZ.


CM
CM, thanks for your interest in expanding to the MS platform. I've been involved with the MS project for quite some time and have a decent working knowledge of the hardware, firmware, limitations, etc. Can you detail precisely what the HSV requires regarding logic/power to operate in the positionary mode? Is it directly frequency controlled, in that a higher freq causes a greater flow? Or is it duty cycle controlled at a static PWM freq in the 300-15K range? The first case can be handled by either of the MS injector channels driving a multiplier chip, the DC case could be handled by use of one of the other outputs and some relatively easy firmware changes.

Thanks,
-Mike
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Old 10-26-2007, 05:51 PM   #47
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No--I'm busy using my idle valve for.... idle
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Old 10-26-2007, 05:55 PM   #48
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CM, thanks for your interest in expanding to the MS platform. I've been involved with the MS project for quite some time and have a decent working knowledge of the hardware, firmware, limitations, etc. Can you detail precisely what the HSV requires regarding logic/power to operate in the positionary mode? Is it directly frequency controlled, in that a higher freq causes a greater flow? Or is it duty cycle controlled at a static freq in the 300-15K range? The first case can be handled by either of the MS injector channels driving a multiplier chip, the DC case could be handled by use of one of the other outputs and some relatively easy firmware changes.

Thanks,
-Mike
Thanks, let me try to help. Static frequency is fine, dutycycle controlled (See chart below). As you give more current to the valve, you will get more flow.

We can do this without using a PWM signal as well by sending a 0-5V to the valve. This however requires a driver board and more electronics, so for simplicity sake lets just look at PWM through a static frequency between 300 and 15,000 with the understanding that higher frequency=better.



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Old 10-26-2007, 06:00 PM   #49
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is that drive board that complicated?

Sounds like a 30 cent part that can be made and sold for 5 bucks.
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Old 10-26-2007, 06:02 PM   #50
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is that drive board that complicated?

Sounds like a 30 cent part that can be made and sold for 5 bucks.
No problem, since its that easy and cheap I will pay $10 for each one you can make for me.

CM
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Old 10-26-2007, 06:06 PM   #51
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Sounds like PMRobert can help with firmware changes to allow for a PWM controlled WI output, which would not require the driver board.

PMRobert, thank you for posting. How did you find this--from the thread at the MSExtra site?

Exciting stuff.
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Old 10-26-2007, 06:08 PM   #52
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No problem, since its that easy and cheap I will pay $10 for each one you can make for me.

CM
I asked a question *******, It doesnt seem that complicated to me. You obviously thing differently, share.
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Old 10-26-2007, 06:10 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by pmrobert View Post
CM, thanks for your interest in expanding to the MS platform. I've been involved with the MS project for quite some time and have a decent working knowledge of the hardware, firmware, limitations, etc. Can you detail precisely what the HSV requires regarding logic/power to operate in the positionary mode? Is it directly frequency controlled, in that a higher freq causes a greater flow? Or is it duty cycle controlled at a static PWM freq in the 300-15K range? The first case can be handled by either of the MS injector channels driving a multiplier chip, the DC case could be handled by use of one of the other outputs and some relatively easy firmware changes.

Thanks,
-Mike
Mike,

Feel free as well to contact us on Monday to discuss this. I would be glad to help.

David
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Old 10-26-2007, 06:38 PM   #54
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No problem, since its that easy and cheap I will pay $10 for each one you can make for me.

CM
is it just me, or did I warn you once?
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Old 10-26-2007, 06:40 PM   #55
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Phillip.

No problem. I will leave this forum. If you find THAT to be bad and find the fact that he calls me an "*** hole" to be acceptable, I dont want to be here anyway.

I really think you are touchy. I have done nothing but try to help people that needed a solution.

I will withdraw from this thread and not visit anymore. I dont want to be part of this board under these conditions.
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Old 10-26-2007, 06:43 PM   #56
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I asked a question, a legitimate one. I don't see the big issue with the board, you obviously think differently. You want to help people share the information.

This isnt a place to just push your valve, its a place to help and share information. You are too shortsighted to see that that is good for business.

(Philip, i think we need to change the mod's font color back to hot pink)
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Old 10-26-2007, 06:52 PM   #57
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like he didn't think we'd notice him deleting all his posts.
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Old 10-26-2007, 08:12 PM   #58
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Originally Posted by Ben View Post
Sounds like PMRobert can help with firmware changes to allow for a PWM controlled WI output, which would not require the driver board.

PMRobert, thank you for posting. How did you find this--from the thread at the MSExtra site?

Exciting stuff.
Ben, yes, the thread from msextra.com is what led me here. I apparently entered at a bad time (bannination of users, etc.) and hope I didn't inadvertently prompt that. I'm still willing to work with the vendors of the HSV, etc., so as to facilitate adding MS support for their device. Would the admins like me to keep this thread advised as to progress? I'd be happy to do that.

-Mike (longtime Mazda enthusiast, current RX-7 & 8 owner and in need of good WI control for 12A turbo project under development)
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Old 10-26-2007, 10:03 PM   #59
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******* cooling mist got tossed oh well maybe DIY can be of some real help. That guy never did give us any real info past his first post.
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Old 10-26-2007, 11:20 PM   #60
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Boy, we are a seriously hostile crowd.
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