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Old 08-02-2007, 12:52 PM   #1
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Default Nozzle location Supercharged app?

I'm planning the enhancements to my FFS Coldside supercharger. The FFS manifold has a location for WI nozzle about midway down the manifold (roughly centered). However, the 5th injector location sits just below the Supercharger outlet. Since I'm getting larger injectors, I'm ditching eCool. Would I get better results putting the WI nozzle under the supercharger outlet or more centered in the manifold?

Also, does anybody make an adapter to fit the WI nozzles in a fuel injector-sized hole?

I've played around with dual nozzles, one pre-supercharger. But, I've heard that methanol is very corrosive and will eat up the rotor coatings. I'd have to run pure water to do. Still might be an option if I think I can gain more than with having an methanol/water mix. Right now, Ilm guessing no. Thoughts?

Finally, nozzle size is a question. Using DO's calculator I get either 2g or 3g depending on hp (I'm starting around 200whp and would like to get to 230-250 safely!).

Any suggestions you guys have?
Thanks!
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Old 08-02-2007, 06:26 PM   #2
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I'd use the 3 GPH. I also have never thought twice about spraying through the blower. When I tore down the blower on my old Tacoma to tap a hole, the rotors still looked fine after a few thousand miles of spraying through it. I'd also be down to help you with the install since you are in Seattle.
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Old 08-03-2007, 12:54 AM   #3
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What size nozzle would you put pre-supercharger? I imgaine that it would be on the small side. Any concerns about pooling in the supercharger?

Thanks for the offer. I may take you up on it!
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Old 08-05-2007, 07:05 AM   #4
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if using a twin nosszle setup a 1-2 gph nozzle will be just fine with a 2-3 gph nozzle on the post SC port. should take care of most if not all of your power needs.
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Old 08-06-2007, 09:19 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by magnamx-5 View Post
if using a twin nosszle setup a 1-2 gph nozzle will be just fine with a 2-3 gph nozzle on the post SC port. should take care of most if not all of your power needs.
Thanks! I'm thinking 1gph pre and 3gph post. Or maybe I should go 2gph post to net out at 3gph? The pre-supercharger nozzle will reduce temps which, presumably, should reduce the amount of water needed in the manifold. If I'm thinking about this correctly, the 1gph pre-supercharger should have a proportionally larger cooling effect than if that 1gph were added to the manifold nozzle. If not, then I don't see the rationale for two stage nozzle. Has anyone experimented with to see the size of the effect?

What would be really neat is if I can turn them on at different times/boost levels. I'm not sure how much, if any, I could gain by doing that - just a thought experiment (the supercharger being less efficient - i.e., producing higher heat - when you spin it faster such that the pre-supercharger nozzle would have more impact at higher rpms). I'm I thinking of this right or just nuts?
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Old 08-06-2007, 09:37 PM   #6
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of course you have them on at different times. The cooling effects of WI are best seen with real hot temps before hand so spray the post SC nozzle at say 6 psi and then by 10 psi spray the 1 gph to cool the blower down just like RJW did. As the SC is only designed for 11-12 psi unmodified spraying pre SC will help you seal and cool the unit itself making the whole afair more effecient. yes a 3 gph system will do you just fine on the whole. To run a dual stage all you need is a solenoid and a boost switch i got mine of ebay for like 12 bucks, with a 30 $ solenoid from mcaster car.
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Old 08-06-2007, 10:06 PM   #7
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Sweet! Thanks!!! The plan is really coming together for my set-up.
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Old 08-07-2007, 06:58 AM   #8
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I ran preSC WI for a while.

Comparing my EMU log files to before i fitted WI it didn't seem to make any difference to the boost levels.

Likewise it may have cooled the MP62 slightly, but even when i started injecting 25% from 3psi the SC was still too hot to touch after a good run.

I removed the preSC WI nozzle when fitting my IC and again there was no real noticeable effect on the running.


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Old 08-07-2007, 10:07 AM   #9
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Sorry, need to make a post to start a thread.... Move along.....
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Old 08-07-2007, 02:25 PM   #10
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socal pat - ignoring...

eunos1800 - would boost increase with preSC WI? I'm not sure that's the best indication of whether it's working. The question is, can you increase boost without pre-detonation with added WI? So, I still have the open question of whether doing it dual stage pre- and post-sc is more effective at cooling than just post-sc?

From what I know today, I would expect the pre-SC WI to decrease the outlet temps from the supercharger via two mechanisms (1) evaporation as heat is generated during compression (primary) and (2) making the sc slightly more efficient via the mechanism that magnamx-5 explains above (secondary and perhaps relatively small in the scheme of things - the size of this effect is ultimately the question I'm asking in different form).

I would not expect that a small amount of water pre-sc would decrease it's temps such that you could touch the sc after a hard run. The WI would be bringing the temps down from OMG hot to merely extremely f**cking hot (like from 250 degrees to 210 degrees - not significant to your hand, but very significant to your engine).

I'm new to all of this. So, I could just be pulling more **** out of my buttocks. However, I'm just synthesizing everything I've read on it to draw, what I think are, reasonable conclusions.
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Old 08-08-2007, 07:51 AM   #11
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Carl,

From my experience if your using WI to reduce the intake charge temp your really missing the advantage of WI.
WI performs best as a knock prevention system or maybe more accurately knock avoidance for a while

Of course you can run more timing/boost with WI, it's just that from the tests i've done fitting the WI nozzle on the intake manifold has a better knock avoidance effect than preSC.

My goal was to run 11psi (115/65 on me MP62) without having to pull any timing from the stock timing curve (14btdc base).

I could not do this on WI alone, as soon as the ambient temps started above 30c i had to start pulling timing.

On the 105/65 pulley ratio (9psi) i was able to claw back around 8 degrees of timing through peak torque purley on WI alone,
But if i injected preSC i was only able to advance 4 degrees rather than 8.
Injecting on the intake manifold only enabled me to run 8 degrees again.

As i say i'd forget about your AIT's and just focus on knock avoidance with WI, by far a better solution for cooling AIT's is to fit IC


Cheers
Mark
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Old 08-08-2007, 09:03 AM   #12
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Uh i run 15 psi on my 16g on the stock curve with a 10 degree start, just fine. I agree post SC is more effective but you need to also look at the reason RJW etc ran pre SC was to avoid a seizure of there blowers . But then agian you already know how i feel about your so called WI prowess. IC is the Devil bottom line if you WI as a standalone you need to run somehting more along the lines of 25-30% of your fuel load.
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Old 08-08-2007, 03:40 PM   #13
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Well, the math is simple and works out that you'll in fact reduce intake charge temps. Whether or not you can reduce it sufficiently in your specific application to advance timing is another issue.

I'm pretty clear that FMIC has more ability to reduce intake charge temps - but not so much of an advantage that you shouldn't see reduced IAT's with WI.

At any rate, FMIC is not an option for my application. So, I'll see what I can do with WI. Ultimately, if eCool works (and it seems to up to about 210whp) then WI should work better. I just need to figure out the configuration (i.e., nozzle location(s) and size), methanol water mix, and timing to actual get higher gains than eCool that's on it today.

So, for my application, WI should work just fine. And, it shouldn't take too much experimentation to get there.


Quote:
Originally Posted by eunos1800 View Post
Carl,

From my experience if your using WI to reduce the intake charge temp your really missing the advantage of WI.
WI performs best as a knock prevention system or maybe more accurately knock avoidance for a while

Of course you can run more timing/boost with WI, it's just that from the tests i've done fitting the WI nozzle on the intake manifold has a better knock avoidance effect than preSC.

My goal was to run 11psi (115/65 on me MP62) without having to pull any timing from the stock timing curve (14btdc base).

I could not do this on WI alone, as soon as the ambient temps started above 30c i had to start pulling timing.

On the 105/65 pulley ratio (9psi) i was able to claw back around 8 degrees of timing through peak torque purley on WI alone,
But if i injected preSC i was only able to advance 4 degrees rather than 8.
Injecting on the intake manifold only enabled me to run 8 degrees again.

As i say i'd forget about your AIT's and just focus on knock avoidance with WI, by far a better solution for cooling AIT's is to fit IC


Cheers
Mark
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Old 08-08-2007, 06:16 PM   #14
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.... And I'll be right behind you Carl. Just ordered my kit today. It'll be interesting to see what injecting both fuel and water/meth at the same time within 6inches will do. Looking forward to dyno time.
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Old 08-08-2007, 07:03 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by magnamx-5 View Post
Uh i run 15 psi on my 16g on the stock curve with a 10 degree start, just fine. I agree post SC is more effective but you need to also look at the reason RJW etc ran pre SC was to avoid a seizure of there blowers . But then agian you already know how i feel about your so called WI prowess. IC is the Devil bottom line if you WI as a standalone you need to run somehting more along the lines of 25-30% of your fuel load.
I experimented with various levels of water, i was able to get better knock avoidance over 30% but the drop in performance just was not worth it.

The great thing with the HSV/EMU setup is i can adjust the water levels instantly by the press of a few buttons on the laptop.

As i've said many times i'm still really impressed with WI and even though i fitted a IC i'm still using it.

But since fitting the IC my intake manifold is now cool to the touch after even a hard run, i'm running the 115/65 pulley ration at 14btdc stock timing curve (EMU's not pulling any timing) and this is through a Greek summer where we've seen 48c ambients.

The throttle response difference is not noticeable, and my car doesn't over heat with the IC stuck in front of the rad.

WI is great, but i'm not gonna bite me nose off to spite me face, IC's are a good solution to cooler intake temps, WI is a good knock avoidance method, each have thier own advantages/disadvantages and i'm happy with both on my car.

You still using the listen and lift method of knock control?


Cheers
Mark
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Old 08-08-2007, 07:08 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by carlb View Post
Well, the math is simple and works out that you'll in fact reduce intake charge temps. Whether or not you can reduce it sufficiently in your specific application to advance timing is another issue.

I'm pretty clear that FMIC has more ability to reduce intake charge temps - but not so much of an advantage that you shouldn't see reduced IAT's with WI.

At any rate, FMIC is not an option for my application. So, I'll see what I can do with WI. Ultimately, if eCool works (and it seems to up to about 210whp) then WI should work better. I just need to figure out the configuration (i.e., nozzle location(s) and size), methanol water mix, and timing to actual get higher gains than eCool that's on it today.

So, for my application, WI should work just fine. And, it shouldn't take too much experimentation to get there.
I wish you the best Carl.

I can't see any reason why you couldn't run at least a 115/65 ratio without a IC, you may have to pull some timing through summer, but if the ambients are 20c are lower i recon it'd be fine.

Of course mines a hotside, so your AIT's should be cooler as you don't have the heatsoak from it sitting over the exhaust, be interesting to see how you get on.

I'm sure i read some of the other FFS are running 125/65, but i've no idea on what timing they're running.
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