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Old 03-09-2007, 03:44 AM   #1
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Default Pump pulses on and off ????

I am finally installing my DO WI - full writeup coming soon. Anyway, when I first mounted my pump I wanted to test my fittings, etc so I cranked it up and let it flow full stream (no nozzle) into a bucket. It ran steady and didn't have any problems. Just a few minutes ago I hooked a 3GPH nozzle to it and ran it into a bucket. The pump pulsed on an off (maybe once a second) the whole time it was running. Is this normal?

FWIW, the 3GPH nozzle flowed 240 ml in 3 minutes at atmospheric pressure (not into a boosted environment).
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Old 03-09-2007, 11:36 AM   #2
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I have the aquamist pump and it does that. it'll try to maintain constant pressure in the water line after the pump and whatever duty cycle gets the job done is what it'll pump. small nozzle, low duty. large nozzle, high duty.

what happens if you run no nozzle? stays on?

fwiw 240 ml in 3 minutes is about 1.26 gal/hr
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Old 03-09-2007, 03:16 PM   #3
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mine does that as well no worries.
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Old 03-09-2007, 06:11 PM   #4
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Originally Posted by y8s View Post
I have the aquamist pump and it does that. it'll try to maintain constant pressure in the water line after the pump and whatever duty cycle gets the job done is what it'll pump. small nozzle, low duty. large nozzle, high duty.

what happens if you run no nozzle? stays on?

fwiw 240 ml in 3 minutes is about 1.26 gal/hr
"let it flow full stream (no nozzle) into a bucket. It ran steady" - I was trying to say, yes, it stays on with no nozzle.

I had not done the math on it yet BUT I would assume that the 1.26gal/hr would drop if you were flowing into higher pressure (boost). Not sure where they get the 3 gal/hr spec on that nozzle. It looks far less to me. This isn't really a bad thing (again, I haven't done any math on this yet). If you get 20 MPG (gas) and drive 60 MPH then you consume 3 gal/hr (gas). If you are in boost you might be actually getting 1.5 gal/hr (gas). If you are injecting 1.26 gal/hr (water) then you are "almost" a 50/50 mixture of gas/water. This is before any leaning that you do to your mixture (I'll eventually drop my A/F mix down on my Link ECU) because you are now cooling with water vs gas. I really doubt that this "3GPH nozzle" is optimum.

Last edited by rmcelwee; 03-09-2007 at 06:27 PM.
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Old 03-09-2007, 06:18 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by magnamx-5 View Post
mine does that as well no worries.
A pump pulsing on and off like that has a far shorter lifespan than one that stays on continuously. So, big worries! Would that lifespan be 1,000 years vs 1,000,000 years or 1 year vs 10 years? I'm not sure, but I still worry about it.

I could also see the flow increase/decrease during the pulsations. Again, probably not a big deal but something to be noted.
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Old 03-09-2007, 06:33 PM   #6
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duhhh I read right over that part. anyway, then it's normal.

you can get a surge tank to damp out the flow variations and prevent G-force starvation... aquamist sells them

http://www.aquamist.co.uk/sl/plist/p...0/806-410.html

I should hope DO had the forethought to design the pump for intermittent operation like that but who knows? At least it's only doing it while you're spending a few seconds here and there in boost.
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Old 03-10-2007, 04:44 AM   #7
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Actually you just need to turn the screw on the top of the pump clockwise untill it flows steady.

The pumps are usually set pretty close to where they should be. I am sorry yours was not.
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Old 03-10-2007, 10:03 AM   #8
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Originally Posted by Wideopentuning View Post
Actually you just need to turn the screw on the top of the pump clockwise untill it flows steady.

The pumps are usually set pretty close to where they should be. I am sorry yours was not.
Is the screw recessed into the top of the pump? My pump is mounted already but I can see some threads in the top where a screw my be. What exactly does this screw setting do?

No problem, not your fault. Just one more problem in a long list with the Devil's Own WI:

- Failure to mention pump pressure (or whatever that duty cyle adjustment
does) setting in the documentation.
- Wrong wire colors in the documentation.
- Wrong relay labelling in the documentation.
- Fittings on the website didn't match the fittings that came in the box
(causing me to have to loop my tubing so it wouldn't leak all over my trunk
again.
- 3 GPH nozzle output is actually 1.27 GPH.
- Didn't get the extra tubing I ordered/paid for.


I'm sure I will find more (will document everything on my website when I finish my WI page).
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Old 03-10-2007, 10:10 AM   #9
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- 3 GPH nozzle output is actually 1.27 GPH.

This is an incomplete spec. It should read 3 GPH @ X PSI pressure. If pressure is under X, flow will be less than rated. Just like fuel injectors.
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Old 03-10-2007, 10:15 AM   #10
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Originally Posted by Ben View Post
- 3 GPH nozzle output is actually 1.27 GPH.

This is an incomplete spec. It should read 3 GPH @ X PSI pressure. If pressure is under X, flow will be less than rated. Just like fuel injectors.
Yeah, but if my pump is cutting on and off would it be higher or lower than 100 PSI right now. I'm assuming higher (cutting off because it is over ranging). So what, it is 3gph at 1000 psi <G>?

I have 4 other nozzles (not compatible with these fittings because the filters are too long ) that I previously had that are listed "@ 40 PSI". I would bet that is the industry standard but I could be wrong.
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Old 03-10-2007, 10:55 AM   #11
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no my pump is a sureflow from snowperformance and i am pretty sure the pulsation of the pump is to mimic duty cycle of injectors etc. turning the pressure adjustment screw on the top will lengthen the pump on time and with it the pressure. the pump is way oversized for the lines run with it so little or no pressure drop will show up. Ive run mine for quite awhile with no issues on that part. As for wire colors being wrong etc it isnt that hard to figure out. Relay being wrong heck mine didnt even work but the boost switch is rated plenty for the pump. FWIW even with no jet on my line my pump it pulses abit. I think you are looking to hard for negatives on this and just being overly pessemistic. I wondered why you even went in on the kit since your previus excursion into WI was shall we say not the best or most advantagues experience. If you use it and actualy give it a try then it should work for you but if you put it in and expect a miracle without tunning or expect it to fall in place like oem i doubt anyone will be able to satisfy you. Use it see if it helps if not then sell it plain and simple. The biggest problem i have found with WI is not that i have to fill a tank all the time it is that people look down on it and discount it. whatever is different or outside of there norm of experience becomes complicated, and silly for them. The same is to be said about remote mount turbos other than being a logistics nightmare i like the idea. This is all dependant on your point of veiw if you want a big blingy laggy FMIC then go for it. If yuo want a short intake tract to the TB and below ambient AIT cooling go WI and play with it. Take my results out of th eequation if you like but this still leaves Boostinsteve, kotomile, and several other people who swear by WI can we all be wrong do we not know what fast is. Kotomile wth a modded srt4, steve with a 500whp camaro and me with a fast little smallblock truck? Or hell even WOT who runs it on VW's etc? Dont hate Ron, WI is love it or leave it, in my book there is on midle ground.
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Old 03-10-2007, 11:20 AM   #12
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WTF are you talking about?

- Pulsation - WOT already said it wasn't supposed to do that and gave me the fix for it. End of story.

- Mimic the pulsation of injectors? Do your injectors pulse once every second? If so, you need to do some serious work to your car.

- Pressure drop - Yes, it most definitely drops. If you watched it spray during the pulses it is pretty evident that there is a pressure drop.

- Wires and relay wrong - Yes, it is a big deal. I will post the correct instructions on my website. If I was selling the units I sure as hell would have it correct. Sorry, just a pet peeve of mine. I write docs and post them on my website so people don't have to go through as many problems with their installs.

- Pulses with no jet - Dude, you got problems with your pump.

- Looking too hard for negatives - No, they came looking for me. I went into this with great expectations.

- Will I tune it - Why wouldn't I???

- Sell it - Why? Just because you didn't want me to buy one?

- Problems with filling the tank - I never said anything about that. It is most definitely not a problem for me. I only run one tank of gas every 3 months!

- Big Blingy Lag FMIC - What?

- Fast truck - Again, WTF are you talking about? Because the docs are wrong I now hate you, Ron, people with 500HP, etc. I think WI sucks. I want a laggy turbo. I don't like filling a water tank once a week/month. I am, in general, just a big *******. You must have read something into my post that I didn't intend. Sorry if something in there rubbed you the wrong way but your post was off base.

Bottom line, the pump was set up incorrectly (easy to fix), the docs were wrong (easy to fix), the GPH was wrong (not sure if this is a problem). I'm happy - why aren't you?
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Old 03-10-2007, 12:06 PM   #13
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you just came of as pretty whiney that is all
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Old 03-10-2007, 06:13 PM   #14
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you just came of as pretty whiney that is all
That was your perception. I only stated the facts in a concise way.
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Old 03-11-2007, 03:55 PM   #15
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The Nozzles are rated at XX GPH at 100 psi. With a pulsing pump you have off time so you will not hit the rated flow. I usually adjust the top screw so I have constant flow when I am doing the intial priming without the check valve. I am sorry the kit has given you so many issues. You should have sent me an message about the missing hose and I would have taken care of it for you. I still can if you want.
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Old 03-11-2007, 06:21 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wideopentuning View Post
The Nozzles are rated at XX GPH at 100 psi. With a pulsing pump you have off time so you will not hit the rated flow. I usually adjust the top screw so I have constant flow when I am doing the intial priming without the check valve. I am sorry the kit has given you so many issues. You should have sent me an message about the missing hose and I would have taken care of it for you. I still can if you want.
No problem. The kit hasn't "given me" many issues, it has only "had" many issues (if you can understand what I am saying <G>). Nothing huge and nothing that I couldn't handle. I didn't send you a message about the hose because I didn't try to install the thing before this week. It had sat in the box for months without looking at it. I might take you up on the offer for extra hose if I need to order anything else from you. Thanks!
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Old 03-11-2007, 09:11 PM   #17
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I am so frustrated atm. I just spent the last hour typing up a message and hit post and the board logged me out. bye bye post. Here is a short version.

With a diaphragm pump the more restriction in the lines the higher the pressure is going to be. So if you dead head the pump and by pass the pressure switch you can see 200 psi. When you remove the nozzle and run 3/8id lines for example you could see 60psi. This is 1 reason we use 1/8id lines to help the system build pressure. This also makes the system react quicker. Less lines to fille etc.

The 150psi pressure switch on the top of the pump has jack dilly squat to do with max pressure of the system. It used to increases the pressure turn off point in 5psi increments give or take a few psi. The pressure switch simple turns the pump off at the pre-set point. By raising this you allow higher psi output and less pulsing.

Here's the break down on the pressure switches
The pressure switches have a differential on off point of 15 to 18psi.
so a un-molested 150psi pump will cut off at 150psi and turn back on at 135psi.

Other factors that effect output pressure

Changes in the fluid temperature will change the viscosity & density of the fluid.
Fluid flow in pipes is affected by many different factors:
The viscosity, density, and velocity of the fluid.
Changes in the fluid temperature will change the viscosity & density of the fluid.
The length, inner diameter, and in the case of turbulent flow, the internal roughness of the tube.
The position of the supply and discharge containers relative to the pump position.
The addition of rises & falls within the tube layout.
The number & types of bends in the tube layout.
The number & types of valves, & other fittings, in the tube layout.

Fluids in motion are subjected to various resistances, which are due to friction. Friction may occur between the fluid & the pipe work, but friction also occurs within the fluid as sliding between adjacent layers of fluid takes place. The friction within the fluid is due to the fluids viscosity.

When fluids have a high viscosity, the speed of flow tends to be low, and resistance to flow becomes almost totally dependant on the viscosity of the fluid. This condition is known as Laminar flow.

This is what we found.
M2 nozzle with 1/8 ID hose 180psi
M3 nozzle with 1/8 ID hose 160psi
M5 nozzle with 1/8 ID hose 135psi
M14 nozzle with 1/8 ID hose 105psi

So this says one thing it doesn't matter what psi your pumps output is. Your hose and nozzle size effect the pressure. So if your calculating your flow directly off the pumps pressure rating it's not going to be accurate.

If you have a pump pressurizing the water, then the pressure it is able to
maintain will drop with larger holes, because more water will be escaping.
(More flow at less pressure)

The Venturi effect is a special case of the Bernoulli effect, in the case of fluid or air flow through a tube or pipe with a constriction in in it. The fluid must speed up in the restriction, reducing its pressure and producing a partial vacuum via the Bernoulli Effect.

All this being said the nozzles are rated for x gph @ 100 psi from the manufacture. Now they are rated to have a 1/2id feed line. This is why they will not flow as they are labeled. The nozzle sizes are adjusted with this in mind. Now if you want to run tubing the size of your thumb you can run a 1gph nozzle.


Yes our instructions leave some to be desired. I been planing on making them 1/3 page size booklet and have a print shop print them. Also wanting to add some pics etc them them. I also need to remove the colors of the relay wires. They change on ever shipment and i never know whats going to show up. I do have 3-4 different instructions for the different colors:( But i do plan to just remove it so people will have to go off the pin numbers. Things even when bought from the same suppliers change on us all the time.

I want you to be happy send it back and i will refund you.
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Old 03-11-2007, 10:25 PM   #18
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I am so frustrated atm. I just spent the last hour typing up a message and hit post and the board logged me out. bye bye post. Here is a short version.
I think the short version was more than enough info for me <G>. Thanks for the post!

So, what is the procedure for adjusting the pump? Turn the screw clockwise until the pump stops cutting off?


Quote:
Originally Posted by devilsown View Post
I want you to be happy send it back and i will refund you.
Why does everyone think I am not happy? The instructions need work, the number of fitting were accurate but one had a 90 on it vs the straight fitting that was show on the website, the drill bit and allen wrench were missing. None of which were a huge deal. Trust me, I will post a page on my website (which is seen by a huge number of people) and you will sell some additional kits based on my recommendation (assuming that the kit works fine - I don't have a reason to doubt that it will). It will make mention that there were problems with the docs but I will post the corrections (at least for the colors, etc that I had in my kit).
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Old 03-11-2007, 11:17 PM   #19
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I told you guys it was normal. I run a 1/4 inch line myself. Even if the presure drop is 15% or so with the pump varying DC to maintain pressure, we could always just factor in a 80% DC max or so to be conservative on nozzle flow. FWIW over a year of hard use on my pump and several gallons of water/methanol and it still works just fine.

Ron like i said before you sounded abit whinny and unhappy, I have seen alot of people who come across like that go straight to bashing WI. It isn't that you where, but it couild have gone either way and i figured i would try to nip it in the bud before you disauded people from trying it for themselves. GL man i hope it all works out for ya.
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Old 03-12-2007, 01:27 AM   #20
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GL man i hope it all works out for ya.
I'm sure it will - if I can manage to keep from drilling any more holes in anything. It took me 3 tries before I could get my nozzle mounted (I had to plug the other two locations)!
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