Questions: WI with Emanage? Basic Vs progressive?
 

Hello, I have some questions about how the basic wi kit work.
I figured out that in the basic kit the water pump is driven by a relay... and the relay is triggered by a pressure switch, right?

Anytime the pressure switch reaches X psi, the relay start the pump and the water flows and get sprayed in the manifold...

So it's possible to trigger that relay with one of the auxiliary output of the e-manage (ultimate), using the Manifold Pressure vs RPM map (if you have a map sensor) to switch on and off the pump...

What are the limits of this setup, compared to a progressive one? (driven by the devils own progressive controller)

How fast is the pump response or how much time took the pump to build pressure in the hose to get the water sprayed effectively?

Is there a way to have a progressive Water injection using the emanage to control it? (maybe using an injector feeded from a high pressure water rail?)

Thanks!! (how much for shipping the kit to europe? :) )
(I made some corrections...)

The relay can not pulse quick enough to offer any sort of resonable control over the pump.
The link with info and pricing are in my sig.

So, how is controlled the injection in the basic kit?
There is a wiring scheme somewhere so that I can understand what controls the injection?

180$ for the basic kit shipping anywhere in the world included? Wow, I tought shipping was for US only...

Ok, I have found the wiring sheme on the installation pdf.

It's really simple: the pressure-switch trigger the relay, the relay switch on and off the pump...
I see no problems to use e-manage to trigger the relay (based on pressure-sensor signal vs rpm or other maps) and discard the pressure switch.

Anyone tried?

You can do it that way. Here's similiar setup instructions as I've done on my Subaru. I do use a cheap solenoid to allow pretty instant spray. The instructions use a UTEC (Suby management) to trigger the pump/solenoid. Same could be done with the Emanage.

http://www.projectwrx.com/modules.ph...howpage&pid=34

Frank

Thanks Frank,
so you start the water pump and open the solenoid at the same moment?
What's the gain of this setup versus the pump+check valve?

Why you can't start the pump with the engine (when arming the systen) and then just opening and closing the solenoid? The pump will suffer from being on all the time?

The prices do not include shipping outside the US.

Actually the UTEC on that page just powers the solenoid I think. You are right. My pump is on all the time. The pump is an on-demand pump. If it senses that no fluid is in the line it pumps until the line is full again. Then you'd have your output of the ECU either close the ground or provide 12v to the solenoid at a given MAP which fires the solenoid. Your tuning would also revolve around this firing point, taking advantage of the extra cooling/octane by adjusting timing/boost/AF ratio accordingly.

I actually use the kit with a pressure switch because my ECU doesn't have an output to fire the solenoid. Still works the same. My switch is normally open and set to 12 psi. At 12 psi the switch closes, the output (ground) closes the loop to the solenoid ground, and the solenoid fires while I'm above 12 psi. The pump keeps up automatically.

I'll add that Wideopentunings basic kit is a pretty good deal. The pumps are going for more than the site I listed. Plus the time and shipping to order stuff from different suppliers. And you get vendor support.

Frank

Ok, now the point is... can I make a WI setup with a standard pump being on all the time and just firing the solenoid with my ecu... or the pump will burn in minutes? (or the hoses will explode under pressure? :gay: )

Maybe to make this setup I need at least a pressure-switch that controls the pressure in the water hose and start the pump or shut it down when the pressure is out of a given range?
Not so hard, anyway...but is it worth?

You would want to have a pressure switch activate the pump before you hit your target boost you wanted to start spraying at. In fact, I would recommend using the vacuum switch for NA cars. Any time you reached 0 manifold pressure the pump would turn on. Leaving the pump on all the time would put excessive strain and wear on all components involved.

Wouldn't you want the pump to maintain a constant pressure in the WI system, regardless of what mani pressure is? IE the WI pump turns itself on & off to hold XX psi--regardless of what the mani pressure is, or if the WI system is spraying or not. Then the emanage fires an injector independantly--and that injector is fed at a fairly constant pressure.

Exactly. And it's simply doable with a pressure-switch that senses the water pressure of the system triggering the pump relay when it's needed, regardless of manifold pressure or system spraying.

Is this more complex setup worth it (in terms of response, etc...), compared to the simple pump+checkvalve of the basic kit?

Assuming that line pressure can be held fairly constant (if the switch and pump are up to the task), all you'd have to do is build a map in the emu. Seems like a great idea to me.... but I've got no hands-on experience with WI or EMU. The concept seems solid.

Seems you need a high speed valve instead of a simple solenoid, to hold the pressure of the water line...

Stolen from aquamist:

Yes, but correct me if I'm wrong... But they use the hsv before a nozzle. I was under the assumption that you going to use an injector. I don't see why you'd need a hsv if the EMU were controlling an injector.

the pump will get bunrt out quik if you leave it runing wiht nothing comming out the other side. just do a simple setup it is the easiest and most effective for the money.

Why? This method is commonly used for pressure systems. If there are no pressure leaks in the system, the pump won't run very often or for very long.

The auxiliary channels of EMU can drive injectors/solenoids or relays... so the plan was to use a simple solenoid......I think you can use a fuel injector instead, but don't know if it's usable with water/alchool instead of gasoline.

Anyway I have some spare 460cc I can modify to be feeded from a water hose instead of a fuel rail and try...

becouse the pump isn't designed for continues use, and you will burn it out. When and, or if the pump goes this is a bad situation for you and your car.

I'd run the WI feed right to an injector, and let the EMU pulse it, and ramp flow with fuel. Sounds like a great plan to me.

460cc/min equals roughly 7.5 gallons/hour. WOT, what size nozzle do you typically recommend with the DO kit?




You missed the point. It's not continous use. In a pressure system, the pump only occasionally comes on to maintain pressure. When the hsv/injectors aren't flowing, I can't see it being on for more than a few seconds. And it won't come on often. When the hsv/injectors are open, water will flow through the pump.

The shureflo on-demand pumps have power to them all the time. They are switched "on" internally based on demand of fluid. I've had my Shurflow pump as posted in the link in my car fused for 6 months now. It works fine and is designed to work that way.

Solenoids are 35 bux from McMaster. Nozzles are 4 bux.

Frank

The injector idea would be the ideal way to utilize the Emanage. Sounds like a stock 1.6 injector would do the trick.

What nozzle is usually included with the DO kit? What pressure the pump hold?

The pumps are rated over 100 psi free flowing but through that tiny nozzle pressure goes up big time. Most the Miata guys are running 3 gph except a few that chose 2's and a couple that are running 5's.

the sureflow pump basic is rated at 140 psi and the upgrade is 200 something. And it is not continuos on as in my system is depends on a ground source to switch the pump on, if you try to dead head the system it will not hold pressure and you will most likely blow out the seals in it with the back pressure. The HSV that stops syphoning, or allows staged injection is a different idea wich still allows fluid to flow at some point of the pump on cycle.

The Shurflo series 8000 pump (the one in the devilsown and other brands kit) comes with an integrated check valve (to avoid backpressure) and can be ordered with an integrated pressure switch. So can work as on on-demand pump coming on and off when the pressure in the closed system falls outside the given range.
So, teorically you can make the pressurized system even without the external pressure switch.

To control spraying you can go with a hsv driven as an injector (or maybe a modified fuel injector directly)...or even a solenoid,but you won't be able to fine tune the flow, just on/off...

I think that the modified setup with the "pressurized rail" is definitly worth trying if you have a free channel on your ecu and a spare injector... it's like having an aquamist 2c for a lot less...

Yes but a complicated system like that would take alot of fine tunning for the record i am not a fan of the aquamist either. How many hp are you looking to pull. the single stage non progressice system should be good for 300 whp as a standalone provided a good WI mix and enough fuel. If i could have gotten my 460's to run correctly then i could have hit 300 whp at 15-16psi. As it was it felt like i was making 240-250whp at 12-13 psi before.

My goal is 200rwhp, nothing more, nothing less. (if i make more, i'll take them :) )
But with the best response possible: super fast spooling, no lag.
So I need to pull the less timing I can, no knock, and WI seems one of the best solutions.

The system I describe is really simple, just the basic kit plus a solenoid and a pressure switch for the water system (but you can live without it), if you give up the injector driving.
Anyway it will cost just few bucks more, has better control on injection point, because you can map it versus pressure and rpm... and have more room for the future...

I am not agianst it i am just saying it is overkill WI on the standard ecu and fpr, i made 200 dynojet whp. at 8psi with wonderfull spool charactericts. If you have the time and money to do it this way go for it i would love to see it. There are alot of variables that make me shy away from trying something like this, money, possibilty of failure on multiple points, ie selonoid varius fuses, em software. i have found it is best to keep things simple when going into new stuff and then venturing forward from there.
This system you are describing would be awsome, and if you can implement it, effectivly i might just copy you.

Its really about how far you think you need to take it vs the gains you will see. I think its silly to worry about it this much when you are still running a small exhaust and downpipe or piggyback. There are much better places to spend the effort.

I don't think so. It won't be any more difficult than tuning the DO progressive controller. It's just putting the powerful EMU in place of a basic controller, which will allow tremendously better control and resolution.