Questions: WI with Emanage? Basic Vs progressive? - Miata Turbo Forum - Boost cars, acquire cats.

Welcome to Miataturbo.net   Members
 


Methanol/Water Injection Place to talk about meth/water injection.

Reply
 
 
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 12-19-2006, 12:11 PM   #1
Junior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Torino, Italy
Posts: 99
Total Cats: 0
Default Questions: WI with Emanage? Basic Vs progressive?

Hello, I have some questions about how the basic wi kit work.
I figured out that in the basic kit the water pump is driven by a relay... and the relay is triggered by a pressure switch, right?

Anytime the pressure switch reaches X psi, the relay start the pump and the water flows and get sprayed in the manifold...

So it's possible to trigger that relay with one of the auxiliary output of the e-manage (ultimate), using the Manifold Pressure vs RPM map (if you have a map sensor) to switch on and off the pump...

What are the limits of this setup, compared to a progressive one? (driven by the devils own progressive controller)

How fast is the pump response or how much time took the pump to build pressure in the hose to get the water sprayed effectively?

Is there a way to have a progressive Water injection using the emanage to control it? (maybe using an injector feeded from a high pressure water rail?)

Thanks!! (how much for shipping the kit to europe? )
(I made some corrections...)

Last edited by jhoexp; 12-19-2006 at 01:20 PM.
jhoexp is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-19-2006, 12:19 PM   #2
Senior Member
iTrader: (6)
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Sammamish, Washington
Posts: 1,396
Total Cats: 0
Default

The relay can not pulse quick enough to offer any sort of resonable control over the pump.
The link with info and pricing are in my sig.
Kelly is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-19-2006, 12:55 PM   #3
Junior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Torino, Italy
Posts: 99
Total Cats: 0
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wideopentuning View Post
The relay can not pulse quick enough to offer any sort of resonable control over the pump.
The link with info and pricing are in my sig.
So, how is controlled the injection in the basic kit?
There is a wiring scheme somewhere so that I can understand what controls the injection?

180$ for the basic kit shipping anywhere in the world included? Wow, I tought shipping was for US only...

Last edited by jhoexp; 12-19-2006 at 03:14 PM.
jhoexp is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-19-2006, 01:43 PM   #4
Junior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Torino, Italy
Posts: 99
Total Cats: 0
Default

Ok, I have found the wiring sheme on the installation pdf.

It's really simple: the pressure-switch trigger the relay, the relay switch on and off the pump...
I see no problems to use e-manage to trigger the relay (based on pressure-sensor signal vs rpm or other maps) and discard the pressure switch.

Anyone tried?
jhoexp is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-19-2006, 01:49 PM   #5
Elite Member
iTrader: (8)
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Severn, MD
Posts: 1,927
Total Cats: 5
Default

You can do it that way. Here's similiar setup instructions as I've done on my Subaru. I do use a cheap solenoid to allow pretty instant spray. The instructions use a UTEC (Suby management) to trigger the pump/solenoid. Same could be done with the Emanage.

http://www.projectwrx.com/modules.ph...howpage&pid=34

Frank
fmowry is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-19-2006, 02:06 PM   #6
Junior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Torino, Italy
Posts: 99
Total Cats: 0
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by fmowry View Post
You can do it that way. Here's similiar setup instructions as I've done on my Subaru. I do use a cheap solenoid to allow pretty instant spray. The instructions use a UTEC (Suby management) to trigger the pump/solenoid. Same could be done with the Emanage.

http://www.projectwrx.com/modules.ph...howpage&pid=34

Frank
Thanks Frank,
so you start the water pump and open the solenoid at the same moment?
What's the gain of this setup versus the pump+check valve?

Why you can't start the pump with the engine (when arming the systen) and then just opening and closing the solenoid? The pump will suffer from being on all the time?

Last edited by jhoexp; 12-19-2006 at 03:14 PM.
jhoexp is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-19-2006, 02:29 PM   #7
Senior Member
iTrader: (6)
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Sammamish, Washington
Posts: 1,396
Total Cats: 0
Default

The prices do not include shipping outside the US.
Kelly is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-19-2006, 03:40 PM   #8
Elite Member
iTrader: (8)
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Severn, MD
Posts: 1,927
Total Cats: 5
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by jhoexp View Post
Thanks Frank,
so you start the water pump and open the solenoid at the same moment?
What's the gain of this setup versus the pump+check valve?

Why you can't start the pump with the engine (when arming the systen) and then just opening and closing the solenoid? The pump will suffer from being on all the time?
Actually the UTEC on that page just powers the solenoid I think. You are right. My pump is on all the time. The pump is an on-demand pump. If it senses that no fluid is in the line it pumps until the line is full again. Then you'd have your output of the ECU either close the ground or provide 12v to the solenoid at a given MAP which fires the solenoid. Your tuning would also revolve around this firing point, taking advantage of the extra cooling/octane by adjusting timing/boost/AF ratio accordingly.

I actually use the kit with a pressure switch because my ECU doesn't have an output to fire the solenoid. Still works the same. My switch is normally open and set to 12 psi. At 12 psi the switch closes, the output (ground) closes the loop to the solenoid ground, and the solenoid fires while I'm above 12 psi. The pump keeps up automatically.

I'll add that Wideopentunings basic kit is a pretty good deal. The pumps are going for more than the site I listed. Plus the time and shipping to order stuff from different suppliers. And you get vendor support.

Frank
fmowry is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-19-2006, 04:15 PM   #9
Junior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Torino, Italy
Posts: 99
Total Cats: 0
Default

Ok, now the point is... can I make a WI setup with a standard pump being on all the time and just firing the solenoid with my ecu... or the pump will burn in minutes? (or the hoses will explode under pressure? :gay: )

Maybe to make this setup I need at least a pressure-switch that controls the pressure in the water hose and start the pump or shut it down when the pressure is out of a given range?
Not so hard, anyway...but is it worth?
jhoexp is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-19-2006, 04:24 PM   #10
Senior Member
iTrader: (6)
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Sammamish, Washington
Posts: 1,396
Total Cats: 0
Default

You would want to have a pressure switch activate the pump before you hit your target boost you wanted to start spraying at. In fact, I would recommend using the vacuum switch for NA cars. Any time you reached 0 manifold pressure the pump would turn on. Leaving the pump on all the time would put excessive strain and wear on all components involved.
Kelly is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-19-2006, 04:27 PM   #11
Ben
Supporting Vendor
iTrader: (33)
 
Ben's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: atlanta-ish
Posts: 12,689
Total Cats: 99
Default

Wouldn't you want the pump to maintain a constant pressure in the WI system, regardless of what mani pressure is? IE the WI pump turns itself on & off to hold XX psi--regardless of what the mani pressure is, or if the WI system is spraying or not. Then the emanage fires an injector independantly--and that injector is fed at a fairly constant pressure.
Ben is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-19-2006, 04:36 PM   #12
Junior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Torino, Italy
Posts: 99
Total Cats: 0
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ben View Post
Wouldn't you want the pump to maintain a constant pressure in the WI system, regardless of what mani pressure is? IE the WI pump turns itself on & off to hold XX psi--regardless of what the mani pressure is, or if the WI system is spraying or not.
Exactly. And it's simply doable with a pressure-switch that senses the water pressure of the system triggering the pump relay when it's needed, regardless of manifold pressure or system spraying.

Is this more complex setup worth it (in terms of response, etc...), compared to the simple pump+checkvalve of the basic kit?
jhoexp is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-19-2006, 04:40 PM   #13
Ben
Supporting Vendor
iTrader: (33)
 
Ben's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: atlanta-ish
Posts: 12,689
Total Cats: 99
Default

Assuming that line pressure can be held fairly constant (if the switch and pump are up to the task), all you'd have to do is build a map in the emu. Seems like a great idea to me.... but I've got no hands-on experience with WI or EMU. The concept seems solid.
Ben is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-19-2006, 04:52 PM   #14
Junior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Torino, Italy
Posts: 99
Total Cats: 0
Default

Seems you need a high speed valve instead of a simple solenoid, to hold the pressure of the water line...

Stolen from aquamist:
Attached Thumbnails
Questions:  WI with Emanage? Basic Vs progressive?-schematics.gif  
jhoexp is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-19-2006, 04:58 PM   #15
Ben
Supporting Vendor
iTrader: (33)
 
Ben's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: atlanta-ish
Posts: 12,689
Total Cats: 99
Default

Yes, but correct me if I'm wrong... But they use the hsv before a nozzle. I was under the assumption that you going to use an injector. I don't see why you'd need a hsv if the EMU were controlling an injector.
Ben is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-19-2006, 05:43 PM   #16
:(
iTrader: (7)
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: nowhere
Posts: 8,281
Total Cats: 2
Default

the pump will get bunrt out quik if you leave it runing wiht nothing comming out the other side. just do a simple setup it is the easiest and most effective for the money.
magnamx-5 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-19-2006, 05:51 PM   #17
Ben
Supporting Vendor
iTrader: (33)
 
Ben's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: atlanta-ish
Posts: 12,689
Total Cats: 99
Default

Why? This method is commonly used for pressure systems. If there are no pressure leaks in the system, the pump won't run very often or for very long.
Ben is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-19-2006, 05:53 PM   #18
Junior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Torino, Italy
Posts: 99
Total Cats: 0
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ben View Post
Yes, but correct me if I'm wrong... But they use the hsv before a nozzle. I was under the assumption that you going to use an injector. I don't see why you'd need a hsv if the EMU were controlling an injector.
The auxiliary channels of EMU can drive injectors/solenoids or relays... so the plan was to use a simple solenoid......I think you can use a fuel injector instead, but don't know if it's usable with water/alchool instead of gasoline.

Anyway I have some spare 460cc I can modify to be feeded from a water hose instead of a fuel rail and try...
jhoexp is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-19-2006, 05:56 PM   #19
:(
iTrader: (7)
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: nowhere
Posts: 8,281
Total Cats: 2
Default

becouse the pump isn't designed for continues use, and you will burn it out. When and, or if the pump goes this is a bad situation for you and your car.
magnamx-5 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-19-2006, 06:00 PM   #20
Ben
Supporting Vendor
iTrader: (33)
 
Ben's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: atlanta-ish
Posts: 12,689
Total Cats: 99
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by jhoexp View Post
The auxiliary channels of EMU can drive injectors/solenoids or relays... so the plan was to use a simple solenoid......I think you can use a fuel injector instead, but don't know if it's usable with water/alchool instead of gasoline.

Anyway I have some spare 460cc I can modify to be feeded from a water hose instead of a fuel rail and try...
I'd run the WI feed right to an injector, and let the EMU pulse it, and ramp flow with fuel. Sounds like a great plan to me.

460cc/min equals roughly 7.5 gallons/hour. WOT, what size nozzle do you typically recommend with the DO kit?




Quote:
becouse the pump isn't designed for continues use, and you will burn it out. When and, or if the pump goes this is a bad situation for you and your car.
You missed the point. It's not continous use. In a pressure system, the pump only occasionally comes on to maintain pressure. When the hsv/injectors aren't flowing, I can't see it being on for more than a few seconds. And it won't come on often. When the hsv/injectors are open, water will flow through the pump.
Ben is offline   Reply With Quote
 
 
Reply

Related Topics
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Hey everyone another n00b here Big_gumby Meet and Greet 80 10-05-2015 05:06 PM
Expected intake temps on the track? tazswing Race Prep 20 10-03-2015 12:04 PM
3rd Time's a Charm...hopefully. zephyrusaurai Meet and Greet 2 09-28-2015 11:59 PM
WTB HPDE miata - Texas Voltwings Cars for sale/trade 0 09-27-2015 07:40 PM
Koni 1150 Coilover Kit drumman83 Suspension, Brakes, Drivetrain 2 09-25-2015 08:03 PM


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -4. The time now is 11:28 PM.