Sonny Snepvangers

I have read a lot about WI/MI setups but i don't know if it is any good for my setup.

Setup:
1800CC NB Engine
450CC injectors
M45 Supercharger
15% Pulley
Audi A6 Intercooler

Results
180,4 WHP
230,2 NM (170 ft lb)
@ 6,5 PSI




Details




I want a little bit more power - 10% to get close to 200 WHP

PS. Air temp is in celcius

Sonny Snepvangers

No one that knows this question?

overboost

Water/Meth injection will definitely allow you to run more aggressive timing while keeping detonation at bay. You will get more power. You can run just water injection to keep from having detonation or you can inject pure methanol and tune for even more power.
I am still shopping for a meth kit but i probably will buy this one, Stage 1 Trunkmount

hornetball

iTrader: (4)

I put in a Coolingmist when I did mine nearly 2 years and 10K+ miles ago. No issues at all with their parts.

overboost

what % meth do you use?

hornetball

iTrader: (4)

I mix my own. 50% distilled water, 50% denatured alcohol (mostly ethanol). Both ingredients commonly available and cheap at Wal Mart or Home Depot.

Sonny Snepvangers

How much HP did you gain?

hornetball

iTrader: (4)

Never ran without WI.

I don't have an intercooler because I didn't want to hack the car. Using WI allows me to run 12 psi without det. An intercooler creates more power because it does a much better job of cooling the intake charge to increase density, at the cost of some efficiency (it makes the turbo work harder).

As for WI, 100% water provides the most detonation protection and the least intake charge cooling (the water takes too long to evaporate to provide any real cooling). 100% alcohol provides less detonation protection but the most intake charge cooling. Not nearly as much charge cooling as a good A-A intercooler though.

Looking at your setup, your limitation is the M45. It's pretty well maxed out. If you want more power, you need to step up to a larger SC or a turbo. WI/MI would only help you if your timing is det-limited. Given that you are running an intercooler, I doubt it is.

dwink

iTrader: (1)

If you were running a M45 without an intercooler, I suspect that the WI would allow increased boost to be run safely?

I picked up a 99 with a standard JR M45 kit, and while I will eventually add a turbo, this might be a good solution in the meantime?

hornetball

iTrader: (4)

Yes, that is the idea behind water injection. It gives det protection similar to racing fuel octanes.

Sean

iTrader: (12)

methanol is good on anything boosted. With a super charger they love it. If you can get it sonoco sells M1 methanol stay away from their other grades because they have additives and other thing that they will not tell you what is in it so I would not risk it. I use a 50/50 mix of M1 meth and water. I have two friends that use different setups. One uses 100% M1 and the other uses 75% M1 25% water. They are both using meth as extra fuel as well as to fight off detonation. The kits they have out now are great I have used snow performance MAF signal kit, Alky Control Map sensor reference, a hobbs switch to just be on or off they all work great just depends on what you want and how much you wanna spend. If you have never used it before I would recomend a full kit from Devils Own, Snow Performance, Alky Control, AEM or whom ever you like the kit makes it easy. If you are a DIY kinda guy you can build a kit at a reasonable price check out Do It Yourself Water Alcohol Methanol Injection I used the parts list from this site to build mine. I got a pump from a friend, 1 gallon cell used from the local speed shop, push to loc fitting and nozzles from mcmaster.com, and I am using my AEM FIC to control it. So I hope that helps.

DIYAutoTune

Let me chime in with some of my experience with water injection and anything besides gasoline in the stock location. not gonna talk about nitrous oxide as thats common knowledge.

First let me say, mixing yourself to get 50/50 is more exact than just putting in 1 quart to 1 quart. Mix it by weight.

Next, you have to decide where to inject. A lot of people have been going pre or post intercooler. It does not matter to the inter cooler and some people have an innate fear as they think it will puddle in some corner of the core and then get sucked up and cause problems. In fact, its moving too fast to stick to almost anything.
You also have people (like myself) that do it pre turbo. i will explain later.

Then you have to decide what you will be injecting. Water or Meth or a mix?

Lets get down to brass tax. any kind of injectant used will help combustion chamber temperatures and augment the octane of a fuel used. Water will some what cool the intake charge, but not by much. In fact, you don’t want to use water for this. That’s what methanol is used for. It will cool the intake temperatures down to around ambient. The key to this is allowing the methanol enough time to phase change into a gas so that all the heat is absorbed. Put water on your skin and put rubbing alcohol on your skin. which is cooler? The reason for this is because water takes a lot of energy in the form of heat to produce its phase change but also carries a lot of it away. Alcohol gets the job done at a lower temp and thus is easier to phase change at lower temps. About the temps a turbocharger will be spitting out at full song.
This is great for people in drag racing as they don’t need to run an intercooler when injecting methanol as it sucks up all that heat and does its job that well. This is called chemical intercooling.

Keep in mind now that you have to adjust your tune for this. I always suggest running it, and then dialing back as its always easier to remove fuel than it is to add. You also have to keep in mind that methanol and gasoline have different flame fronts and burn rates. It reacts differently than gasoline so don’t totally rely on it.

Now we move to water. Water is gloriously bestowed upon us naturally and it is free, or should be free. Anyways, so what good is water if its so hard to phase change in the intake pipe? That’s a good question. When a turbo comes into its own and is pumping a lot of air, it takes denser air, and compresses it at a high rate of speed. Normally this is just called a pump. The same kind of pump used by NASA to feed the space shuttle its fuel. So all this time its pumping and the fluid (air or water) getting compressed gets agitated and heats up tremendously.

What water does in this scenario is take an already dense air, and forces it to be denser. Tiny water droplets that you inject into the turbo will cause the compressor map of the turbo to change, thus providing you with a little more head room, and causing the outlet air of the turbo to be slightly less than what it would have been. Now, this isn’t enough to cause phase change, but the water will carry this latent heat with it into the combustion chamber making it much easier to phase change. This phase change calms the violent combustion process down and in the process artificially bumps up the octane of fuel. Because steam can compress, there is no fear of hydro locking. Hydro lock only becomes a fear when you inject way too much water into your combustion chamber, but before that can even start to happen, your spark will be washed out and it is often a recommendation that you have a beefy ignition system to handle the water injection. Also id like to note that very minimal tuning is needed with the addition of water. It can be added to most cars without without much worry about how it may affect your tune.

Now you might have seen warnings that pre turbo will damage the compressor wheel. Volvo did some research in the 80's and found that this started to happen after about 80k miles. i doubt your turbos will last this long. So its not a worry.

With both methanol and water injection you have decide how you will inject it.
Power the pump and just have it spray?
Power the pump and use a solenoid and a pwm to meter it based on pressure?
Inject the AI via an air bleed from the intake?

Lets discuss.

Power the pump and just have it spray?
This is a very common and quick way to get our foot into the AI door, but its dirty. Once the pump powers off, the pressure slowly dies and thus the Injectant starts to dribble from the nozzle. you want to prevent this as much as possible. You can use a one way valve that requires about 10psi to open. these can be found anywhere. put this immediately after the nozzle.

Power the pump and use a solenoid and a pwm to meter it based on pressure?
This is by far the best way as you can do this simply by using an aftermarket computer (if you have one. you should have one by now if you are turbocharging) or you can use a controller. Where you get your controller is up to you, however some range from just turning a simple set of dials to having to jack into it with your laptop and changing a 3d map.

Inject the AI via an airbleed from the intake?
This is a great way to inject, however this can only be done pre turbo. Pressurized air is bled form the intake after the turbo, and is fed to a chamber containing water. this pressurization of the water pumps water out of the container and inter the turbo. Remember what i said earlier about keeping the line pressure high? use a one way pressurized valve to prevent dribbling.

Thats about all i have time for now. if you have any questions, dont be afraid to ask. And remember kids, pre turbo water injection is mucho fun. I do it on my turbo rx7, and i use straight tap water, a controller, and 800CC smack bang into the turbo charger and oh boy is my intake tract super duper clean.

Dust

Can't disagree with most of what you said, but mixing is only as difficult as you want it to be. Mixing by weight is no different than mixing by volume. The only thing that matters is that you do it the same everytime, and lets be honest, 1 of these and 1 of these is simpler than 1.x of these and 0.x of these.

94mx5red

iTrader: (14)

What concerns are there, if any, with recirculating or venting to atmosphere?

I can't imagine it is a good idea to routinely spray small amounts of meth inside the engine bay.

DIYAutoTune

Hm.... that is indeed a good question. I think if the ratio was 50/50 meth/water, you will be fine. it will evaporate anyways.

When i would do it, not a lot of water would come out at all. example, take a spray bottle, and turn to maximum misting. then give it about half a squirt. not much.