WI vs IC
 

my HP goal with a TDO5 is 220whp. I am just about done putting it on, I will have 550cc injectors, emu, rail, pump all the stuff. The next is should I run an IC or WI or both. Please give me the run down.

both.

.

thought so. thanks for the input

I'd start off with an IC. Don't listen to anything Magna has to say on this topic. :inout:

if only one, get the intercooler

if both, add a progressive WI kit

Thems fighting words dammit :crx: WI can get you where you want. On a single stage or normal progressive setup.

for 220whp the WI is unnecessary.

in fact i still haven't seen any proof that it is necessary on any stock internal miata.

A turbo isn't necessary on any stock internal miata either, but I run one anyway.

you can't make 220whp without a turbo....

touche good sir.. touche

Lets see you run 14 psi on a stock internal miata with only a safc. ;) Al you know a thing or two but WI pwns all that is the end of the story.

ok but since everyone has an MS now, that doesn't really matter. ;)

i just want to see a dyno of before and after, 14psi to 14psi, without WI and with WI.

the only reason I've asked for this a few times is because if it looks like it's worth it, I'd like to add WI over the winter. I know the car feels like it has 25 extra hp in the winter versus summer, so I want to know if WI can make it winter year-round....

My WI at 5 psi makes the plenum cold to the touch after boosted runs.

Exactly i would love to do a 14 psi to non WI 14 psi run but you will have to buy me a new motor to go with it after i make that run with no WI I got 17 or so happening now and it is friggin awesome.

you gotta remember that the WI can get you below ambient thats the trick.

Take a log with MS and see what the map sensor is reading. Curious how much boost you're turning now.

i tried but i was getting some weird AF readings and did a restart and lost the log i thought i was running Ill shoot you a log in the AM though once i run one. :D

I remember this one time I popped my engine because of a faulty nozzle on my IC. Oh wait, there aren't any nozzles on an IC.

My thinking is that adding in that extra bit of complexity better be really worth it. The IC will also make a nice net if my turbo ever shits the bed :)

Jay

Jay It's all good, i understand that everyone can't understand my genius.

makes me wanna add a DO WI to the list...
I'll do a search on Magna since it seems you're the
one getting me into this...

You can make more power with WI at the same boost easily. I made the same power at less boost on a car with it vs without.

I think anyone not running it is crazy. Leaving alot on the table.

Its just that you can make more power with lower intake temps. And WI gives lower intake temps than IC

It goes way beyond that. The intake temps are what let people see gains with 0 tuning though.

WOT, tell those lazy bastards to get crackin' on an affordable HSV and I'll rock the WI. My MS will make a kick-ass fully programmable controller.

And it's not intake temp cooling that makes it effective. it's combustion chamber cooling. you really don't want to drop your IAT under ambient; it could cause water to turn back to liquid in the intake tract and collect.

where can i read more info on how this works?

Ben it drops it below ambient. Thats the concept behind it because it evaps at the wet bulb temp, below the dry bulb.

read evaportive cooling, cooling towers etc.

sounds like you were being serious but thats a bit too general. I'm looking for info as Ben mentioned earlier, gains are not made by cooling lower than ambient as it may turn to liquid and collect in the intercooler..

While an HSV will allow for great tuning, I don't think there will be much gain over a dialed in progressive system and I am not sure whether DO has plans to release one. They have a few other more important products they are working on that should be released soon..




I certainly wouldn't be running without at least a basic system in the mean time.

You don't spray pre FMIC.


My little bro installed a basic system on an Audi S4 today. The phrase that kept being repeated was" It feels like a different car"

I understand the concept of evaporative cooling. Bear in mind the intake charge temp is well above ambient.

the primary purpose of WI in our application, meaning forced induction device pushing hot air through an a:a heat exchanger, with the WI nozzle near the intake manifold, is not so charge cooling as much as it is knock control via combustion chamber temp cooling.

read through aquamists' tech pages. good stuff.

WOT, the HSV will do more for me than that. Consider it will allow me to control the squirt event based on a 3D map (MAP, IAT, RPM). It will also allow me to have only 1 controller in the car (and not have to have a seperate box). Since my controller is a fairly capable ecu, this means I can fully control, monitor, and datalog the amount of spray. It would also mean I could add a WI gauge to MLV and have it appear on my palm. Screw a red LED, I gotta gauge NGA.

With Devils Own's new nozzle coming out that produce multiple droplet sizes, evaportaion and heat absorbtion will be happening all the way to the chamber from where ever the nozzle is.

this is all great and everything, but I want to SEE the difference on a dyno graph for a stock-internals MIATA.

Yes the below amnbient cooling lowers our BSFC and given the velocity of the intake tract what is not evaped is suspended in small droplets. Kinda like a swamp cooler. Haven't you ever been to a amusement park where they spray water through a fan at people, and notice the cooling effect you get from that. Most would argue this is do to galvonic skin response, but the increased evap do to surface area increase and the calorific holding power of h20 and methanol.

Al, I should have something soon for you. The car and setup will be
90 Miata 1.6 with 60k Miles
Flipside T3 Manifold, T3 S60 with .48 hotside.
2.5" DP and 3" exhaust
Pretty large FMIC with Flipside plumbing
Devils Own Basic system with 3 GPH nozzle.

After his first drive at 15 psi and making no tuning changes he swore he gained 25 whp. I guess we will see on the dyno. He also has spiked 22 psi from a wastegate signal line failure. He checked his logs later and had no knock sensor activity.

ben its just a matter of how you look at it i guess. The equation balances either way.

so would an intercooler sprayer (nitrous outside/infront of IC) plus WI be a bad combination?

No it would not. The Ic sprayer would help avoid heatsaok and the WI would suplement cooling.

I think it would be pointless if you already have WI. If you are gonna spray onto something...spray the radiator.

sweet, exactly what I want to see. looking forward to it.

damn, thats a really good idea man ... cant believe I never thought of it, OTOH why have I never heard of it before?

Because it is an elaborate band-aid solution for an over heating problem that needs to be taken care of in other ways!

The IC spray was something I was going to work on when I was drag racing. Seemed like a good idea at the time - putting my radiator fan on a switch with an IC spray. Turn the spray on and hit the fans to suck it through. Just a little cooling for the IC while waiting in line to race.

To the OP just get a big shinny front mounted intercooler and don't listen to anything Magna says :bigtu:

magna convinced me to run WI back in a day. i still have not hooked it up :)
by the way, should i run WI before intercooler or after?

after.

Yes always after pudles are a bad thing urban

Attachment 215840

:inout:

Admittedly, my next mod is water injection and a retune for some more timing. I'd love to see 250rwhp out of the T25.

your next mod needs to be a hole in the bumper skin so your radiator gets fresh air

I've seen holes in the bumper cover, oval shaped if i remember correctly. They actually look pretty good, specially for a track car.

I kinda like kickinouty0's ( I hope I spelled that right) bumper holes. IIRC it's three oval holes below the body line.

I'm bored. Here's kickinoutyo's:

Attachment 215835

his holes on a red car (jdm eg2's I believe):

Attachment 215836

and, just for fun, a 2-hole version:

Attachment 215837

now I wonder, if you were to cut the holes and then put some color-matched mesh behind it how much they would stick out..

Holy negative camber, Batman! :eek:

Resize your pics