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MS Labs MS3 Basic to MSPNP Pro no start

 
Old 03-25-2017, 03:07 PM
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Default MS Labs MS3 Basic to MSPNP Pro no start

Gents,

I'm trying a PNP Pro to see if it fixes my electrical gremlins.

Can I just use my 1.4.1 tune from the MS3 Basic in the PNP Pro with 1.4.1 firmware? Do I need to do anything else? She won't start.

Thanks,
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Old 03-25-2017, 04:01 PM
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I got her to start by giving her a little gas pedal. After she warmed up just a bit, she idled on her own, but at about 640 rpm instead of 950. AFRs were very rich, in the low 12s and it's about 70 degrees here.

The wideband was working, but TunerStudio read a steady 10.7 and never changed.

Once she was idling by herself, I checked the base timing. It went from needing a 5.5 adjustment to a 10.0 adjustment.

I checked all the tables, and things look correct. The settings match the working tune from the MS3 Basic.

I've included a short tune of her idling in the driveway.

Should I assume there is no really no correlation between the MS3 Basic and the MSPNP, even though they run the same firmware?

Thanks,
Attached Files
File Type: msl
2017-03-25_15.39.31.msl (602.2 KB, 43 views)

Last edited by poormxdad; 03-25-2017 at 04:47 PM.
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Old 03-25-2017, 06:01 PM
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Gents,

Something is very, very wrong. Nothing works. Even though she starts and runs, nothing is actually working. Fan Control does not kick in. The Idle Control Valve test provides no changes. The wideband doesn't register. I suspect the base advance shouldn't have been changed.

Soooooooooooo, I decided to load the base map provided with the PNP. I could not get her to start, even after playing with the Required Fuel settings. I decided to take a break, and went to put the battery on charge. I found the battery case was hot to the touch.

WTF?
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Old 03-26-2017, 02:36 AM
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Just to be clear, the default dashboard gauges do work. I watched the coolant temp rise, the tach worked, etc.
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Old 03-26-2017, 04:59 PM
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Sooooooooooo, I spent the better part of the weekend with the car and the PNP Pro. I reloaded the 1.3.4 firmware that came with the MS (which I got eight days ago even though 1.3.4 was superceded in 2015 and is now obsolete). I did not save any settings and started from scratch (as far as I know). I installed the Miata base map that came with the box, and hand jammed every number EXCEPT for the AFR, VE and Ignition Tables. I checked every setting.

One weird thing... when doing a comm test, TunerStudio finds TWO controllers, even though only one is installed. One is found on USB (the MS3 Basic) the other (the PNP) on RS232. I choose the PNP and press on.

She started right up. I thought that I was victorious, but the O2 sensor still was not integrated. I tried all the analog inputs, but no change. The MTX-L was reading in the high 10s, but TunerStudio read a steady 12.5 without change. Those are two separate issues in my mind. Does the hardware in the PNP Pro need smaller numbers in the VE Table to get the same AFRs as the MS3 Basic?

This time around, the Idle Target Curve was working. When she warmed up above a 150 degrees, I checked the base timing. She still needed a 10 degree correction.

In the amount of time it took to check a few settings, have the car warm above 150 and reset the base timing, the battery temp went above 110 degrees according to my laser thermometer. It's about 65 ambient here. I shut down operations at that point. I have the Alternator Control set to Off, which is the way it has been for the last four years. Does the PNP Pro REQUIRE some other setting? I wasn't willing to try something else with the battery temp rising. It continued to climb despite the negative cable being disconnected and peaked at about 119 degrees.

I'll change the Alternator settings back to what was provided in the base map and see what happens. Still have to figure out why no O2 sensor reading in TS.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

I attached the hand jammed tune and a really short log I got after I found the battery hot.
Attached Files
File Type: msq
Handjamm134.msq (249.2 KB, 121 views)
File Type: msl
2017-03-26_15.50.14.msl (765.7 KB, 44 views)

Last edited by poormxdad; 03-27-2017 at 06:40 AM.
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Old 03-29-2017, 02:39 PM
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I purchased a PNPPro for my 2000 in December. It came with the 1.3.4 software as well. I started my project/tune without even being aware it was obsolete. When I got to Closed Loop Boost Control and found it was not great, I upgraded to 1.4.1. I would not even bother going forward with 1.3.4

Why don't you contact DIY? Your unit includes phone support as well as email support.
Matt is the Miata guy.

Here is my firmware upgrading experience.
I saved all of the table values from my 1.3.4 firmware before I upgraded to 1.4.1 (no, didn't go 1.5). That seemed a bit of brute force/blind ignorance, but I felt it was the safest way to ensure that no firmware differences could corrupt my new tune. I made sure to lock my calibrations first. Once I upgraded the firmware I opened the default 1.4.1 base msq into a new project and uploaded all my saved table values to that msq. I saved it and then spent a good bit of time comparing the two tunes (two laptops). the calibrations from 1.3.4 looked like they made it over successfully. I lost a few assignments such as the stock tach was on the wrong output. DIY also warned me to use 'old barometric' corrections. Once I was comfortable everything was converted over, started the car with no real issues and got back to tuning the CL Boost control.
Good luck.

Last edited by fwman1; 03-29-2017 at 02:57 PM.
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Old 03-29-2017, 08:21 PM
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The DIY folks have been great. Very responsive and helpful. I loaded 1.3.4 to minimize the changes to the default Miata map. I'll go to 1.4.1 once I'm confident I have things right. For my particular situation, I need to be more careful about the differences between the two tunes. Folks upgrading from the stock ECU don't have my problems.

I ASSUMED that since the MS3 Basic ran the same firmware loads, the transition would be easy--I would physically install the MSPNP, load my tune and done. Not so, but I'm okay with that. I only have one issue. No one has answered my question whether or not the fuel and ignition tables I used in the MS3 Basic would work in the PNP without modification. I'm nearly at the point of taking her out on the road and need to know that answer.

I've got the alternator control sorted out. She starts right up, but will only run for a couple of seconds when cold before she dies without fanning the gas pedal. However, it doesn't take much time before she'll idle on her own, but I'm not smart enough to figure out why. Most of the numbers are the same as the previous tune. Also, if I give her a bit of pedal while idling, the AFRs get really lean, and seem to take too long to settle down. The old tune didn't have these problems. I do understand that the hardware is different, and some of the defaults for the PNP make things work a little differently. I could use an assist.

Attached are my current tune and the latest idling in the driveway log.
Attached Files
File Type: msq
poormxdad29Mar.msq (250.0 KB, 108 views)
File Type: zip
2017-03-29_18.37.43.msl.zip (278.6 KB, 7 views)

Last edited by poormxdad; 03-29-2017 at 08:33 PM.
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Old 03-30-2017, 09:48 AM
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If the car idles well when it's warmed up, try using a bit more IAC duty cycle at the temperatures where it's stalling out and see if that fixes it. If the IAC hardware is different on the MS3Basic, the duty cycle table may not copy over.
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Old 03-30-2017, 06:21 PM
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Gents,

Here's another log, idling in the driveway with the current tune. I ran through the Idle Valve Test and updated the table. There are a handful of instances where I fan the throttle a little bit, up to about 3000 rpm. After I let off the pedal, the AFR STILL stays up in the 16s for several seconds before settling down. I messed with the Dashpot Adder in the Closed Loop Idle Settings, but that didn't have any affect.

Any help would be greatly appreciated,
Attached Files
File Type: msq
IdleValveChanges.msq (249.6 KB, 63 views)
File Type: msl
2017-03-30_17.36.03.msl (1.87 MB, 303 views)
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Old 03-31-2017, 10:08 AM
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It's pretty common to set overrun cells intentionally lean to save fuel. But you can richen these particular low kPa / around 2000 RPM cells if you'd rather not.
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Old 03-31-2017, 11:32 AM
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Matt,

I understand. What I'm trying to figure out is why after fanning the throttle and lifting off the gas, the AFR stays in the low 16s and slowly comes back down over the course of more than a few seconds. Too much idle valve would add more air but not fuel, correct, making things go lean?

Thanks,
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Old 03-31-2017, 09:06 PM
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Opening the IACV moves your kPa up in the VE table. The amount of fuel is then dependent upon the value in the table at that load point (kPa row, RPM column). Refer to the fundamental fueling equation, and see that the length of ini pulse contains factors MAP and VE, and the addend Dead Time as the fundamental elements of the equation.

Pro-Tip: know if you are using the general VE table, or the Idle VE table when this is occurring.
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Old 04-02-2017, 08:29 AM
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Sir,

I think a light may have come on. It's dim, but I think it's on.

Thanks,
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Old 04-02-2017, 02:23 PM
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Originally Posted by poormxdad View Post
Sir,

I think a light may have come on. It's dim, but I think it's on.

Thanks,
'Twas the goal.

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Old 04-03-2017, 11:47 AM
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I'm still having a cold/warm start issue despite redoing the idle valve tune, but it does seem to be getting better. I tuned the idle steps and lowered the cranking pulse.

She'll crank over, the rpms will run up to 1600 or so, stay for a second, drop rather quickly to 1100 or so on the tach, pause for a second, then then drop till she dies, even if I give it some pedal. Hot start is no problem.

I'll post a log this evening, just of the start.

Thanks,
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Old 04-03-2017, 06:27 PM
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Here's my current tune and a log with two starts.

First start, she shot to only 12-1300 rpm, sat there for a second, slid down to about a 1000, then died. She could not have run for more than five seconds. I turned the key off, turned it back on and listened for the fuel pump to prime, then turned it to start. This time the rpms didn't get as high as I would have thought, but she continued to run without any assistance.

I chose "Mazda" as the Common Sensor Value in the thermistor table, but it really seems like the PNP thinks she's warming up fast. It was 63 degrees ambient and the car had sat over night, but it only took a couple of seconds for the coolant to heat above 100. I could be wrong, but it just seemed weird.

Any insight would be greatly appreciated,
Attached Files
File Type: msl
2017-04-03_17.11.33.msl (859.6 KB, 42 views)
File Type: msq
Parlati28Mar.msq (249.2 KB, 117 views)
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Old 04-15-2017, 03:57 PM
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Default Well, this is new

Gents,

Things are coming together, but I had something new happen. I was doing some pulls through 6000 rpm to check for loss of sync issues, and the battery light came on. That has never happened before. She seemed to run fine, but I brought her home.

The log shows min voltage at 13. I'm new to the Alternator Control pulldown, so I don't know if there's a setting gone awry.

Any help would be greatly appreciated. My next event is a week from today.
Attached Files
File Type: msl
2017-04-15_14.37.43.msl (616.5 KB, 67 views)
File Type: msq
poormxdad15Apr.msq (237.6 KB, 119 views)
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Old 04-16-2017, 08:12 AM
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I think I figured it out.

In the Alternator Control Pulldown, WOT TPS% is set at 101.0, presumably to stop the function from working. I assume that is why the two sub-items, WOT Target Voltage and WOT Timeout, are grayed out. The log shows TPS went to 101.9, and it just so happens the WOT Target Voltage is set to 12.5, which is also what the log shows. So it seems that function was working, even though it wasn't supposed to be.

Question is, what to do about it. I don't see a setting for the voltage to make the battery light come on. And I don't know why TPS went to 101.9%. Although the extra power is probably welcome, since it's my track car, she runs at WOT a lot. Maybe set WOT Target Voltage at 13.1V???

Thanks,

Last edited by poormxdad; 04-16-2017 at 08:46 AM.
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Old 04-18-2017, 09:49 AM
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It makes me wonder if there are any other features that appear to be OFF but are actually still functioning...
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Old 04-18-2017, 11:12 AM
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Your Basic MS3 version (V1.4) had the alternator control built-in, as the MS3 firmware didn't have alternator control function in the firmware back then. Units newer than V3.1 have MS3 firmware-controlled alternators. No other functions are controlled by built-in hardware (aside from the alternator and battery light).
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Originally Posted by ninerwfo View Post
The “into to megasquirt thread” mentions that the MS3 basic has 5 inputs with built in pull up resistors - and I was just wondering why it would have so many, while the MS3Pro PnP has just 2 (with no pull ups?)
MS Labs: Plug and Play Megasquirt ECUs for ANY 90-05 Miata (NA, NB1, NB2 w/VVT, MSM), including basemaps to get you started ASAP. PM me or email or details.
For support on MS Labs ECUs: Please email, be sure to include the unit's serial number and include a datalog and your current map.
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