MSPNP2 woes - 95 1.8 turbo
 

Long story short... I'm having some rather annoying issues getting my car to idle properly. The WB reading won't get out of the 10AR range regardless of what I try to do, both on the gauge and in TS. Therfore, it's running stupid rich, even after autotune tries to lean out the fuel. The fuel load in the idle range actually went down to 2 and the AFR never left the 10 range :vash:

I've set the engine constants to reflect fixed timing at 10-degrees advanced and have set the physical timing as well on the CAS/pulley. All the proper IAT values have been applied. The wideband settings in the 'AFR' calibration have been set properly as well. The only values that are obviously concerning to me are the injector downtimes, which are currently set at 10.00... But are supposed to be way lower as per the flowforce instructions. When I input the values listed on their website, the car won't start at all.

I pulled the spark plugs to see if they were firing and found them all to be black. I changed them all to NGK Iridium in the 7 heat range and replaced my plug wires while I was at it. There is spark coming out of the coil on all four cylinders.

MSPNP2 1.2 revision board w/ GM IAT (spliced into the oem MAF harness) and DIY EBC (wired correctly)
Deleted EGR (capped intake manifold top port only)
Flowforce injectors (610cc) w/pnp harness (reqfuel set at 5.0)
Turbonetics T3 60-trim
Tial 38mm MVS WG
EL top mount manifold
3" DP w/ AEM UEGO WB (spliced into the oem o2 ecu wire)

I'll upload my tune and log this evening.

I'm at a total loss folks. Any help would be greatly appreciated!!!

I should also note that my target AFRs for idle are set to 14.5.

what exactly have your "tried to do"?

I meant hardware wise. I have spark, I have tons of fuel... I just can't get the AFR's to get into the proper range. Aside from autotune and the settings I've noted in the OP, I dont know what else to do to help.

rofl at deadtimes. i missed that in the first read.

Feel like helping out? Or are you just trolling?

The flowforce site states, "0.63ms @ 13.2v with a 0.116ms/v battery voltage correction.". However, the car does not start with those settings at all.

use 1.0ms. not 10ms.

are they low ohm injectors?

nope, high impedance.

if youre telling the ms the deadtime is 10ms, then it's going to hold the injector open 20ms longer than normal, plus the injection time.

Well that would explain it. I'll set that to 1.0ms and see if it works out. Except I know the deadtime and battery corrections provided by flowforce don't work at all... It just cranks till it can't anymore.

I'm a noob at tuning, so I'm sorry for asking stupid questions. With that said, they're only stupid if you know the answers ;)

Doesn't run in the desired Afr until I set the dead times to 2.5... Anything lower and it starts to choke.

that means your fuel map is complete shit. l2t

MSPNP2 woes - 95 1.8 turbo
 

Injector wise, make sure the contacts on the harness side are clean. After 20 years you can get a bit of corrosion which can cause problems.

Others have had success with the listed dead times, so I don't think that is the problem.

You have tons of experience building and tuning on the ms platform... Yet, are you on here to troll or to help people out?

Saying the fuel map is shit is not helpful. Keep your useless comments to yourself and waste your own time instead of others.

See, that is actually helpful. I'll clean them out and see if that helps.

Dude, if you keep poking the Brain bear, you are gunna have a bad time.

With those specified flow numbers and dead time your idle on-time (including DT) should be ~1.5-1.9 msec (didn't run calcs, they are easy to find). At a DT of 2.5msec a VE of 1% will deliver something like 80% more fuel than needed.

its very helpful.

if you dont have enough fuel to idle, then changing your deadtimes to increase fuel over fixing your fuel map isnt going to solve the problem with your fuel map being bad.

youre solving one problem by creating another.


fix your fuel map.


if you dont have enough fuel ADD FUEL IN YOUR FUEL MAP.


fuel map


fuel map





the fuel map is fucked






have you picked up on the issue yet?


fuel map




map of fuel needs more.



what else do you want me to do? fly over, plug in my laptop, open your fuel map, and fix it for you?


here's something incredibly helpful: with your injectors and PROPER deadtimes and req_fuel value, your idle cells should be in the 60-70% zone. if they are in the 30-40%VE area, that's why you have to double the deadtime in order to idle...

the no-start below 2.5 can be due to several other issues that are masked when using a DT of higher than 2.5. Specifically, if your priming pulse/priming pulse delay or cranking pulse values are jacked then the DT of 2.5 could be "fixing" these issues. You need to view the start cycle as multiple separate events.

Search the forum, find a basemap, look at the priming/cranking settings, and match them.

Thanks. Next time try elaborating on wtf you're talking about instead of providing a generalized stupid answer. You couldn't have answered properly the first time around? Some of us (maybe just me?) don't know anything about tuning, but are trying to learn. Hence why we're asking questions. If you're going to be a dick about it, don't answer. Pretty simple concept isn't it? Otherwise, it's a waste of everyone's time, including yours.

With that said, I'll re-verify the idle fuel map and bring up the values and use the proper dead times and voltage corrections.

Check your fuel map, could be shit

You waste our time then get pissy at the help provided?

You don't learn to tune by begging for help, you read and understand what the hell you are doing. Do you at this point know what deadtime does, why 10ms was allowing the car to start? Why it was so fucking insanely wrong that we mock you? If not, you truly suck and you won't learn anything even if we spoon feed you, so why even bother wasting our time?

Ungrateful lazy knob.

you know what else is a simple concept?

increasing fuel in your fueling table when it's too lean to idle.

I pointed you in the correct direction, i dont have the time to sit here and tell you exactly what to do. you're a big boy, you should be able to figure it out.

you increased dead times over 10 times longer than the company suggested in order to idle, but then you couldn't get the system leaned out. I suggested doing that dumps in fuel because it changes the fuel calculation by holding the injector open longer to account for the deadtime (the time that injector is opening/closing but not actually injecting fuel).

Fixing your deadtimes made it so you couldn't idle again, where again i suggested the fuel map is bad.

using a just tiny little logic one would probably look at his fuel map (since it was pointed out) and maybe try to simply add fuel.

I don't like hand holding and i dont always have time to spell it out, and don't always want to.

Alright. Let's start over. Sorry if I'm a tad short fused, but I'm beyond frustrated with trying to get this application going. I do apologize and would really appreciate assistance.

You mentioned you don't like holding hands or have time to spell things out. I get that. I don't have time to waste in trying to get proper information to help me in understanding what is going wrong with my setup.

Here's all of the information I -do- know...

I've got the following upgrades which have replaced a well idling, yet very late spooling 95 1.8 miata...

Hellafab EL top mount manifold (replaced a begi cast manifold)
Hellafab 3" DP w/ EWG dump tube (replaced a begi 2" divorced dp)
Turbonetics T3 60-Trim turbo (fully reman'd w/watercooled center section and stepped gap piston end ring upgrades) (replaced an ihi turbo that predates the interwebz)
Tial MVS EWG with watercooled top
Flowforce (mustang shelby 500GT) 610cc Injectors (deadtime = .63ms@13.2V, .116 ms/v battery correction) (replaced OEM injectors)
Megasquirt PNP 2 for my application (mm9495) - Using the Miata Turbo basemap as a starting point from DIYAT (replaced the OEM ECU, begi FMU, Apexi ignition controller and knock sensor - all piggy backed to the OEM ECU)
AEM UEGO wideband wired to the o2 ECU wiring connection
GM IAT sensor - wired to the proper wires on the OEM MAF harness (2nd and 3rd pins from the right)
DIYAutotune EBC - also wired correctly
New spark wires (denso)
New iridium NGK plugs (7 steps colder)
Timing was set on the CAS to 10-degrees as required by the MS ECU.

Now, onto my problem...

The car won't idle or even start at the injector deadtimes mentioned above (req fuel set @ 5.0 in MS engine constants). That is, unless I throw a fuck load of fuel in the the fuel map or change the injector characteristics, where it won't idle below 1500-2000rpms (not good). I've adjusted the idle set valve on the TB to the most closed point as possible, but it's not changing the idle speed. I thought it was a problem with the GM IAT sensor, so I got a new one yesterday and triple checked the wiring, everything is supposed to be working. I've set the MS ECU to use fixed timing (10 degrees), turned on autotune to see what it would do, which resulted in nothing but the idle speed going up and the AFR going super lean (15-range) or super rich (10-range). Even switching it to use the ignition map results in nothing but a wonky as fuck idle and it going really lean.

I'm at a complete loss as to what to do to fix this problem. I've checked and re-checked all the injector, IAT and ECU wiring and checked for vacuum leaks... Everything seems to be just fine hardware wise (boost gauge reads -15 in vac). My last ditch effort is to put the OEM injectors back in and see if I can get it at least idling properly. However, even if it does, they'll choke with the amount of boost/power I want to achieve (230whp - 11-12psi).

The basemap I got from DIYAT wasn't changed other than a few basic settings (injector deadtimes and characteristics, the REQfuel which matches my setup (1800cc displacement, 610cc injector flow, 4 cyl, 14.7 AFR range). It will run stupid rich if I tell the injectors to have a dead time of 2.5ms, obviously... And the car will idle at those deadtimes, but nothing below 1500rpm. Same deal if I tell it to give them more fuel in the fuelmap in the idle range.

The other thing I'm thinking that maybe the problem is the OEM FPR... However, I'm grasping at straws here due to frustration. It was working fine before, as the car idled perfectly with the old piggy back stuffs.

can you post your msq?

-15in is what I get in Leadville Colorado ... this number is telling you something.

The IAC shouldn't even be needed to get the car to idle in the 800's. You should be able to disconnect it completely and have the car idle down.

In my opinion you need to re-baseline the hardware by reducing the number of changes. Specifically, go back to the original injectors. Don't worry about the ultimate power goal at this point.

Double check you fuel pressure at the rail.

Update:

I swapped back the stock injectors, created a completely new project in TS and loaded up the miata turbo basemap from DIYAT (this was done twice when I was running the 610cc injectors). The fucking car idles perfectly between 536-700 rpm right off the first start-up. Autotune corrected it and it now idles between 580-620rpm. I took it for a spin and it spools up to 11.5psi (current wg spring setup), where autotune adjusts the fuel/timing as it runs.

Obviously the injectors were causing all the problems. But wtf... Others are apparently running them just fine.

I highly, highly doubt that. You can't be the only person in ever to not be able to run GT500 injectors.

It's much more likely you still have no idea what you are doing. The curve on the new technology injectors is a lot different than the old stock pieces of shit. These injectors are so awesome, I was able to flat my whole fuel map out to 175, and autotuned it in from there, I don't think I have any values lower than 160 or higher than 200, SUPER flat VE table. Stock DIYautotune VE table is garbage.

So, learn to tune, again. If you'd go read the megamanual instead of posting stupid stuff and installing useless injectors you'd know what was going on by now.

Also, that's a retarded low idle. Should be 850 rpm or more. Autotune NEVER adjusts timing, and you are fucking dumb, 11.5psi on stock injectors?

Go read, please.

Measure the resistance of each of the new injector coils.

What injector differential pressure was used to generate the characterization numbers?

Do you have a spare stock fuel pressure regulator?

Are you running the stock fuel pump?

<p>I'm running GT500 injectors with the posted dead times and my car runs awesome. Idles easily around 14.6-15. Cranks and starts right up.&nbsp;</p><p>When people ask about your fuel map show them</p><p>When people ask to see your tune show them.</p><p>People can't help you without seeing what is going on.</p>

<p>Also no way in hell you are running 12psi safely on stock injectors. How lean did it go, 17, 18?</p>

Cough.... Fuel pressure ... cough

Potentially explains both the crazy dead time and the non-engine grenade at 12psi with stockers

Include battery voltage at the injectors (while running of course)

did you ever get this fixed. I am having problem getting my flowforces to run too.