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Old 06-19-2015, 12:24 PM   #1
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Default MSPNP2 woes - 95 1.8 turbo

Long story short... I'm having some rather annoying issues getting my car to idle properly. The WB reading won't get out of the 10AR range regardless of what I try to do, both on the gauge and in TS. Therfore, it's running stupid rich, even after autotune tries to lean out the fuel. The fuel load in the idle range actually went down to 2 and the AFR never left the 10 range

I've set the engine constants to reflect fixed timing at 10-degrees advanced and have set the physical timing as well on the CAS/pulley. All the proper IAT values have been applied. The wideband settings in the 'AFR' calibration have been set properly as well. The only values that are obviously concerning to me are the injector downtimes, which are currently set at 10.00... But are supposed to be way lower as per the flowforce instructions. When I input the values listed on their website, the car won't start at all.

I pulled the spark plugs to see if they were firing and found them all to be black. I changed them all to NGK Iridium in the 7 heat range and replaced my plug wires while I was at it. There is spark coming out of the coil on all four cylinders.

MSPNP2 1.2 revision board w/ GM IAT (spliced into the oem MAF harness) and DIY EBC (wired correctly)
Deleted EGR (capped intake manifold top port only)
Flowforce injectors (610cc) w/pnp harness (reqfuel set at 5.0)
Turbonetics T3 60-trim
Tial 38mm MVS WG
EL top mount manifold
3" DP w/ AEM UEGO WB (spliced into the oem o2 ecu wire)

I'll upload my tune and log this evening.

I'm at a total loss folks. Any help would be greatly appreciated!!!

Last edited by impulsive.ca; 06-19-2015 at 01:00 PM.
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Old 06-19-2015, 12:57 PM   #2
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I should also note that my target AFRs for idle are set to 14.5.
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Old 06-19-2015, 12:58 PM   #3
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what exactly have your "tried to do"?
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Old 06-19-2015, 01:03 PM   #4
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I meant hardware wise. I have spark, I have tons of fuel... I just can't get the AFR's to get into the proper range. Aside from autotune and the settings I've noted in the OP, I dont know what else to do to help.

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Old 06-19-2015, 01:32 PM   #5
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rofl at deadtimes. i missed that in the first read.
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Old 06-19-2015, 01:37 PM   #6
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Feel like helping out? Or are you just trolling?

The flowforce site states, "0.63ms @ 13.2v with a 0.116ms/v battery voltage correction.". However, the car does not start with those settings at all.
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Old 06-19-2015, 01:57 PM   #7
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use 1.0ms. not 10ms.

are they low ohm injectors?
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Old 06-19-2015, 02:00 PM   #8
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nope, high impedance.
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Old 06-19-2015, 02:02 PM   #9
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if youre telling the ms the deadtime is 10ms, then it's going to hold the injector open 20ms longer than normal, plus the injection time.
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Old 06-19-2015, 02:04 PM   #10
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Well that would explain it. I'll set that to 1.0ms and see if it works out. Except I know the deadtime and battery corrections provided by flowforce don't work at all... It just cranks till it can't anymore.

I'm a noob at tuning, so I'm sorry for asking stupid questions. With that said, they're only stupid if you know the answers

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Old 06-19-2015, 07:27 PM   #11
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Doesn't run in the desired Afr until I set the dead times to 2.5... Anything lower and it starts to choke.
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Old 06-20-2015, 10:31 AM   #12
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that means your fuel map is complete ****. l2t
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Old 06-20-2015, 08:23 PM   #13
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Default MSPNP2 woes - 95 1.8 turbo

Injector wise, make sure the contacts on the harness side are clean. After 20 years you can get a bit of corrosion which can cause problems.

Others have had success with the listed dead times, so I don't think that is the problem.
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Old 06-20-2015, 08:38 PM   #14
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You have tons of experience building and tuning on the ms platform... Yet, are you on here to troll or to help people out?

Saying the fuel map is **** is not helpful. Keep your useless comments to yourself and waste your own time instead of others.
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Old 06-20-2015, 08:49 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nigelt View Post
Injector wise, make sure the contacts on the harness side are clean. After 20 years you can get a bit of corrosion which can cause problems.

Others have had success with the listed dead times, so I don't think that is the problem.
See, that is actually helpful. I'll clean them out and see if that helps.
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Old 06-21-2015, 11:28 AM   #16
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Dude, if you keep poking the Brain bear, you are gunna have a bad time.

With those specified flow numbers and dead time your idle on-time (including DT) should be ~1.5-1.9 msec (didn't run calcs, they are easy to find). At a DT of 2.5msec a VE of 1% will deliver something like 80% more fuel than needed.
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Old 06-21-2015, 11:56 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by impulsive.ca View Post
Saying the fuel map is **** is not helpful. Keep your useless comments to yourself and waste your own time instead of others.
its very helpful.

if you dont have enough fuel to idle, then changing your deadtimes to increase fuel over fixing your fuel map isnt going to solve the problem with your fuel map being bad.

youre solving one problem by creating another.


fix your fuel map.


if you dont have enough fuel ADD FUEL IN YOUR FUEL MAP.


fuel map


fuel map





the fuel map is fucked






have you picked up on the issue yet?


fuel map




map of fuel needs more.



what else do you want me to do? fly over, plug in my laptop, open your fuel map, and fix it for you?


here's something incredibly helpful: with your injectors and PROPER deadtimes and req_fuel value, your idle cells should be in the 60-70% zone. if they are in the 30-40%VE area, that's why you have to double the deadtime in order to idle...
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Old 06-21-2015, 12:08 PM   #18
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the no-start below 2.5 can be due to several other issues that are masked when using a DT of higher than 2.5. Specifically, if your priming pulse/priming pulse delay or cranking pulse values are jacked then the DT of 2.5 could be "fixing" these issues. You need to view the start cycle as multiple separate events.

Search the forum, find a basemap, look at the priming/cranking settings, and match them.
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Old 06-21-2015, 03:06 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Braineack View Post
its very helpful.

if you dont have enough fuel to idle, then changing your deadtimes to increase fuel over fixing your fuel map isnt going to solve the problem with your fuel map being bad.

youre solving one problem by creating another.


fix your fuel map.


if you dont have enough fuel ADD FUEL IN YOUR FUEL MAP.


fuel map


fuel map





the fuel map is fucked






have you picked up on the issue yet?


fuel map




map of fuel needs more.



what else do you want me to do? fly over, plug in my laptop, open your fuel map, and fix it for you?


here's something incredibly helpful: with your injectors and PROPER deadtimes and req_fuel value, your idle cells should be in the 60-70% zone. if they are in the 30-40%VE area, that's why you have to double the deadtime in order to idle...
Thanks. Next time try elaborating on wtf you're talking about instead of providing a generalized stupid answer. You couldn't have answered properly the first time around? Some of us (maybe just me?) don't know anything about tuning, but are trying to learn. Hence why we're asking questions. If you're going to be a dick about it, don't answer. Pretty simple concept isn't it? Otherwise, it's a waste of everyone's time, including yours.

With that said, I'll re-verify the idle fuel map and bring up the values and use the proper dead times and voltage corrections.

Last edited by impulsive.ca; 06-21-2015 at 03:21 PM.
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Old 06-21-2015, 09:04 PM   #20
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Check your fuel map, could be ****
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