2011 MX-5 PRHT 6MT: Suggested Turbo Kit?
 

Hi Everyone!

I'm new to the forum but old to fast cars and haven't done any tuning since I sold my '69 GTO back in the eighties.

I've recently bought a 2011 PRHT GT 6MT with the premium package. 13,000+ miles for $23,000. Other than a couple of small scratches it looks pristine.

I'm thinking about turbocharging this car. It will be a daily driver, used approximately 12k-14k per year. I'm able to pick up and understand new tuning information, perhaps a little slowly, but I've never been handy and have no desire to go back to working on my car. I used to do it all the time, but that was back when a wrench, a screwdriver, a hammer and a timing light would take care of most things.

I've done a LOT of reading over the last few weeks, both on this forum and one other Miata forum. The state of the art has changed since my last sports car ('93 RX-7) and I'm working on catching up.

I would like suggestions on how you would take a car like mine and upgrade it to a turbo given the following restrictions/goals.

1. I'm OK with less than 250 hp but want more than 200hp and have no wish to modify engine internals.

2. I would like a kit, or something kit like, that I can take to a local shop (Mazcare seems likely) and have installed.

3. I would like it to be as OEM like as possible. Turnkey, install and drive.

4. $6K-$7K is about my limit (installed).

On a separate note, my MX-5 came with the premium package, but I'm not sure if it has a LSD, or the Bilstein shocks. If not I will probably want to swap these out. Any way to crawl up under it and verify without taking anything apart/

Thanks!

Doc

Sorry didn't read the post. Short on time. Post pictures please. :D

Also based on just the title, did you check FlyinMiata? But I think they don't have a turnkey turbo solution for the NC, just SC. But I'm sure you've checked there already.

I have, they don't list a kit for MX-5's newer than 2005. I've looked at the BEGi kits, the FM kits, and the TDR kits.

This pains me to say, but the FM S/C kit seems to satisfy all your wants and needs, other than it not being a turbo.

Tuning Done Rong (not to be confused with Track Dog Racing) has a kit that i suppose isn't the worst thing in the world.

Hi Concealer,

I looked at that kit and it does look appealing. I didn't see any exhaust components with it which makes me wonder if it gets the advertised improvement without modifying the exhaust?

LSD test: From a stop, rev to 5000rpm, drop the clutch, then check how many tire marks you made. >1, you have LSD.

LOL! OK, I can do that. How about the shocks, do they have any easily identifiable markings on them?

I believe that the dyno chart shown for the kit is from one of their "Targa Package" cars which includes an exhaust.

They advertise about 230whp with stock exhaust i think. Targa Package ends up around 250whp.



If it were ME working with your car, for your purposes, i'd honestly just buy the Supercharger kit, no electronics, a decent exhaust setup from somewhere, and a standalone EMS that your local tuner is most familiar with. Oh, and a clutch.

That combination is currently at or close to the top of my list of possibilities. Would you go ahead and put in a lighter flywheel while you were replacing the clutch?

The only other one that looked close was the TDR Turbo kit.

I'm a big fan of "while i'm in there" so i don't have to do work twice, even if it means i blow my initial budget. :)

So, yes, i'd do a light flywheel.


I'd consider the Tuning Done Rong kit, but ESPECIALLY in this case, with no electronics and a standalone of your choice.

Why not a BEGi kit? Sounds like its right up your alley, although the FM supercharger setup isn't bad either and would get you the 250 you're after

As you've probably already noticed, there aren't many options for the NC's these days. Everyone is having too much fun modifying the daylights outa NA's and NB's lol

I HIGHLY suggest you stay away from TDR (tuning done retarded, not Track Dog Racing). That guy is a raging idiot.

The BEGi kit is definitely a possibility. I'm not thrilled at having to relocate the battery, but given the limited space under the hood of an NC I'm somewhat resigned to those type of issues.

Basically the only kits I'm aware of are the FM SC kit, the BEGi S3 kit and the TDR Force2. I'm not familiar with the pros and cons of any of them other than what I've read on the internet, and I'm also wondering if there are other options out there.

I'm sure that long time users are very aware of who the legitimate suppliers are, and who to avoid. I'm also fairly certain that there can be some disagreement about who falls in which category. I'm trying to figure that out before I spend lots of hard earned cash on an inferior product.

Between BeGi and FM:

If you want something that will fit right the first time and have your entire order arrive at your door complete and correct with a baller packaging job, you buy FM.

QFT.

+1 on the FM Supercharger kit for your needs. FM even gives you a 50k mile warranty. Who the hell gives you a warranty on REAL performance parts in this day and age?

There is a fellow on mx5atlanta that goes by mxgeorge who has a very nicely done 2006-up turbo car. I don't know the details but it is a daily driver and it runs STRONG. And it has been running a turbo for at least 4 years that I know of. Perhaps his was done by a shop local to you and might be a good answer for your needs. A kit might not be as good an answer as a local shop that builds the components in house (just like BEGI and FM do) and has been there and done that before a few times.

I wish you the best with your search.

You can do the LSD test with a bit more mechanical empathy by just hitting it hard in first in gravel or dirt. No 5000 RPM clutch drops required, although if you DO decide on the asphalt clutch drop method, video please?

THIS. I really like everyone there but most BEGI produced parts I have bought required some modification...

Topic break: I just saw a sale thread for a rollbar with a padded leather cover to fit a PRHT, just in case you might be interested. Here.

Sir,
The battery, when moved to the rear, changes the weight distribution of the nose heavy MX5 by 2%.

All the items are provided and the task takes about an hour. I remain surprised that every owner doesn't do same.

Corky

I never could understand why the hell Mazda engineers moved the battery to the front in the first place. There are a quite a few half ass decisions that were made with the NC.

I still want one though.

LOL, I hadn't thought of that. Thanks for taking the time to respond to my thread, I've heard a lot about you, all good.

Unfortunately this will probably not work for me. I use the car as a daily driver and I'm also a competitive shooter. The trunk as it is will barely hold all the firearms and ammunition I need for a match. When I traveled to the Alabama State Championship two weeks ago, there was zero spare room in the trunk on the first leg, a little more on the return since the ammo was all gone.

I've been doing a lot of research, the BEGi kit looks great, and has a great reputation. The TDR Force2 also looks great, but I can't find much feedback on it or the company. It looks like I may have to settle on SC rather than TC. Since I have no plans to go further with mods, I think the power increase will be sufficient for my needs. I like the fact that the FM supercharger is used by OEMs and that Mazda used it in their project car. It looks like the kit is designed to be a hotside install? If I understand this correctly that means it will run cooler? Is this correct? Any issues with belt replacement or frequent slippage?

FWIW, with this car being a daily driver. You will have a lot less points of failure with a supercharger than a turbocharger. Keep that in mind.

I didn't know that Erat, would you mind elaborating?

Well, you don't have oil and coolant lines running to a supercharger. Thus no points for you to drain all your oil and coolant out. You don't have the added heat from a turbo, which can cause damage over time. There hasn't been years and years of R&D on the NC like the NA has had.

FWIW, I have had issues with getting all my parts from FM, 3 times now. The latest they insisted that they sent me all the parts, until they realized they were wrong, and sent me the part I was missing.

I still love FM, but the point is no company is perfect. Both companies have outrageous shipping (yes I'm spoiled by Amazon, and yes I understand why Amazon can offer free shipping). Both companies are helping the Miata community.

My suggestion, and it sounds like you are already doing this, take everything in to consideration when making your decision. I wouldn't be completely turned off of Begi based solely on having to do a bit of modification or a being a bit delayed on getting your parts. You should plan for that no matter who you order from.

That being said I say you go turbo. Mostly because down the road some time I will probably get an NC and I want the turbo development to be sorted by that time :D

Flyin' Miata : Projects: The V8 NC Project

https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1381941611

Just a thought...

Just drove an NC for the first time a few weeks ago (brand new 2013 Club PRHT) and loved it. I kept thinking "man, if this thing had 220-250 whp it would be nearly the perfect car." Looks like you're on your way there.

To echo Erat's comments: the supercharger is a simpler modification. No need to modify exhaust components, no need to run new lines or drill oil pan holes (hello, oil return line...), no need to worry about spool-down cooling after an enthusiastic drive, etc.

However... Also no crazy mid-range torque punch. That's a turbo exclusive!

About the battery... What about one of those little batteries? I know they're really expensive, but they're small and light and would either free up space in the engine bay, take up less space if you move it to the trunk, or give you freedom to mount it elsewhere like the photo above.

Mounting underneath the trunk is a clever solution.

With everything we know about the downsides of supercharging, I cannot in good conscience suggest it. Your fuel economy will diminish in every aspect of driving due to the parasitic load of the drag from turning it. It will always create drag, even when not being used to try to make power. A turbocharged Miata will very often yield better fuel economy than stock, as many here will attest. A turbo will just freewheel and generate a very normal driving experience when not being pushed, and only be there if you need it.

A supercharger is always "on", robbing power, stealing fuel economy from you, and always generating a loud whine which is unnerving on long trips.

Steve, I think you're being a bit dramatic. Yes it will hurt fuel economy a bit, but a well-designed supercharger kit will not hurt fuel economy by more than a couple MPG in normal driving.

Secondly, all the videos you've shown are acceleration videos. Turbos make noise under full throttle acceleration too! At cruising, the superchargers aren't so bad. I think the whine sounds cool under accel (as do many others), and under cruising I would bet you'd hardly notice it, especially with the top up in a PRHT.

Finally, his options and budget are both quite limited. The supercharger is the easiest, least-intrusive, and most reliable way to get to his power goals. Would a top-shelf turbo system be better? Torquier, yes, and possibly more efficient, but at what cost?

It comes down to goals. The guy clearly wants a bolt in, set it and forget it solution, and has very modest power goals. In this specific instance the SC just might do the trick.

*edit: oh and if he hasn't driven a turbo miata that helps too. Once you do, the SC just doesn't satisfy anymore ;)

First, thanks for all the informative and interesting replies! I have a much better understanding of the options I'm looking at.

Erat, thanks, that makes sense. I had a twin turbo RX-7 years ago, and I had a Subaru WRX for several years, but I never tweaked them, just bought them, maintained them, and drove the heck out of them. My understanding of the alterations needed for TC vs SC is very limited, but getting better.

FRT, so you're saying you want them to work out the kinks on other people's cars? :rofl::rofl:

Fooger, where is that thing located, under the trunk? Any issues with it being upside down? Thanks, that does give me some alternatives!!!

Turbo Fan, I'm in agreement, the NC is a very sweet ride, the Grand Touring edition and the premium package make for a very well appointed vehicle. I like the way it pulls, but I definitely want more power. If I remember correctly my RX-7 was at about ~260hp at the crank and weighed just a little more than the MX-5. I like the little battery, as I mentioned to Fooger, that hadn't occurred to me and might be a viable alternative that would allow me to use the BEGi kit.

Six Shooter, thanks for the videos, very cool. I like that sound, reminds me of the sound of the car Mad Max drove in Road Warrior.

18PSI, You are correct, I just want to set it and forget it. At 50 years old with five kids, two jobs, and an expensive and time consuming shooting hobby, I don't have the time I used to have to do things myself. I'm at a point in my life where if I can pay less per hour to have a thing done for me than what I get paid per hour I'm going to fork over the bucks. Especially if it's something I don't like to do, like work on cars. I've never driven a turbo Miata, but I've driven lots of fast cars and motorcycles. I believe an NC Miata pushing in the neighborhood of 250hp will perform pretty close to what my RX-7 did, hopefully without the engine rebuild at 90K miles. That will be fast enough for me.

Thanks again guys. If you have any other information or opinions please keep them coming. I read your posts, then go out and look up things you get me to thinking about. I just researched the SC from FM and it looks like it's very highly regarded.

The Optima battery pictured is completely sealed and contains a gel instead of liquid. It can be installed in any orientation.

Oh, and a Grand Touring with Premium package will have the Bilsteins and LSD.

I'm full of questions today. I've noticed that hp >~250 necessitates replacing some internals (rods, etc.). If I go with <~250 hp, and put in a new clutch and flywheel are there any mods that will improve durability with the increased HP?

I note that Turbofan mentioned a limited budget. Is a kit for approx. $6K and install for approx. $1-1.5K too low?

No, that's about right. Anyone wanting more to install it is ripping you off.
And it will hold up just fine with 250hp to the crank, which is somewhere around 225-230 wheel, which is what the FM sc is advertised for.

FWIW I think the NC motor can handle a fair bit more power stock interals then the older 1.8's.
I know I'd love to slap a turbo on one. Also regarding sound, I used to love the supercharger whine but after hearing the turbo I much prefer it.

Yeah, no NC is going to grenade on an FM Supercharger due to power. Especially a later one such as yours that has some forged goodies.

Idk why, but my open diff (i assume its open anyways) does this every time. It has no problem turning into a 2-skidmark-making Mad tyte dorifto machine...
I havent cracked open the diff to look though... and considering that i am running 17psi, and it hasnt broken in 4 years of abuse, it MIGHT be a torsen... but i dont think it is... it has the 8 equally spaced tabs on the stems coming off the pumpkin... and according to every chart ive found, that means it is a 1.6, 6 inch open.

lol I was kinda joking with that one.

The easiest way would be to do the test I mentioned with 1 wheel on the grass. If you go anywhere, it's a torsen. If you don't, it's open.

2) you definitely don't have a 1.6 torsen diff.

because they didn't make them, the 1.6 diffs are open or viscous-lsd (aka "almost open"). You would 100% know for sure if you have an open diff and you tried to do mad tyte doriftoing, you will get a bit sideways and then just not go anywhere because 1 wheel spins. I can "drift" in the rain (with lift oversteer), but the car will NOT powerslide, if you get on the throttle too much or too early in a corner... well... nothing happens. You just bounce off the rev limiter without actually going anywhere.

You can drift an open diff mx5 in the wet, but you have to flick it into the slide, and it is very unstable mid drift, and you need to kick the clutch often to get the outside tyre to break traction again.

Dann

Ah, ok... i didnt think there was a 1.6 torsen. According to the tabs, it is a 1.6. But, i dont know, there were so many different ones, and the guy before me Performed an extensive list of mods, including an all new interior, so i wouldnt have been surprised if it had a better diff... but the equal spacing and size on the tabs says NO!!! lol I DEFINITELY leave 2 treadmarks though. Ill have to try the grass thing.... OR.... stop being lazy, and crack it open. Ill go with the grass first though. lol

I havent done it too much, because i dont like buying tires, OR putting my car into the wall. But, i do have to "flick" it into the turn, which it holds and handles quite well. I dont do it often enough to know for sure, but it DEFINITELY goes into a drift/slide with ease. I need to crack this thing open... hell, maybe its welded... it just doesnt act like its welded when i make a tight turn (ie: inner tire skipping/chirping)


ANYWAYS.... IN for awesome NC POWA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

So I noticed the instructions for the SC are on Goodwin Racing. They're out, but say it's the same kit as FM. The instructions on Goodwin warn against reflashing the ECU, but there is a cautionary statement on FM saying engine management is needed. So which is it?

one probably wants you to run a piggy back or something
the other probably wants you to reflash using ecutec

either way, engine management is absolutely 100% mandatory, as is a proper tune from a reputable tuner

You can do 3rd for 1/4 mile in one direction in the wet, but it is very hard.

I guarantee that it wont hold a slide with static controls for more than... 100 feet or maybe 150.

Dann

ARE there any good management systems out there for the NC yet? Anyone build an MS for one or anything?

ecutec is pretty solid. OEM ecu with altered fuel/timing/etc. I don't see the need for megasquirt on those things. Just a need for them to stop being greedy and drop prices already, because $700 is pretty steep for the software

Damn... thats redonkulous... Anyone Pirate that shit yet??? lol jk

I'm thinking the FM approach will run about $6,000 for the SC package (ECU Reflash) plus clutch, mid pipe and muffler. Add $1,000 or so for the install and I get ~230 hp at the wheels for just over $7,000? The install looks pretty straightforward and it looks very professional when in. I lose the warranty and a couple of miles per gallon. I get a 2500lb/250hp daily driver that delivers a very smooth torque curve, decent mpg, great handling, and great reliability.

Am I missing anything?

honestly, 10lbs per 1hp sounds pretty decent for a reliable daily

but... that price.... DAMN....

Sounds like a plan

Well we get to make fun of you for having a supercharger :party:

As long as you can deal with that it sounds pretty good.

I think I can live with being made fun of, it wouldn't be the first time.:sad2::sad2:

I sent a message to Mazcare, a reputable local shop, asking for an install quote. We'll see.

Yup. A PRHT with an added stupidcharger would be more like 2700 lbs :brain:

Earlier, in my reference to limited budget, I had thought that you were shooting for $6k with installation and tuning, and with the more expensive NC options out there I thought that sounded pretty tight for a turbo kit. And it is. But $7k for the supercharger, while still lots of $$, will get you where you want to go!

Good luck! Make sure to post before and after pics and stuff!

Mind blown that Miata Turbo is recommending a blower. FWIW sounds like a blower is best for you since their manners are nice for dds.

Again, thanks for the feedback and tips everyone. I got to thinking last night, always dangerous, and did some more number crunching.

It looks like the BEGi system would cost almost exactly the same as the SC assuming I equip it comparably, reflash, exhaust, clutch. I'm thinking the install would cost a little more. I would end up with probably 30-50 more WHP, maybe a little more maintenance, and an upgrade path (which I don't need) for about $6,000 plus install. And Turbofan won't laugh at me, can't forget that!

The TDR system will come in as the most expensive at $6,200 including reflash and exhaust, but no clutch. So throw in a clutch from somewhere else and it looks like about $6,600 plus install and horsepower at the wheels will be similar to the BEGi.

Sound right? Other than doing the install myself (no way) I can't see how to get a lower cost without buying used.

Haha what? I won't laugh at you? Good sir, I will not be laughing at you no matter which way you choose to go, since you'll be the one driving around in a FI Miata, something I'm currently lacking!

That being said, to go turbo on a BEGi kit for the same money... That's the way I'd go. There are more things you'll need to watch, but if the installation is done correctly and carefully then it shouldn't be any less reliable than an early 90's RX-7, wouldn't you all think?

LOL, a turbo rx7 is NOT the standard of reliability.

Its actually quite the opposite.

The turbo kit George has on his '06 was one of the first production BEGi kits that were shipped out and he and I installed it in his garage over the course of a weekend (and then a follow up install for parts that had to be shipped and/or swapped). He still has the NC and it's running strong, although some complications with an earlier tune compromised the first engine and there was some issue with the exhaust manifold flange (since corrected).

We actually talked yesterday about his setup, if I understood correctly he's now using a combination of a flashed ECU along with the Xede that came with the turbo kit from BEGi. The flash took care of some things that the Xede couldn't do and the Xede allows on the fly adjustability that a reflash doesn't.

I'll point him in the direction of this thread though and he might have some insight to offer from his journey through the boosted NC world, although this thread has been plenty informative. If you want to test out a turbo NC before making your choice, he's a real friendly guy and I'd bet he'd be happy to accomodate, it's a good way to make sure you'll be satisfied with the investment. (We might even have a local NC owner with FM's s/c too, can't recall right off, would be very easy to post on the local Miata forum, mx5atlanta.com, and ask.) I'm also not a shop, but depending on your timeframe, I'd be happy to help with your install should you not be satisfied with your quote from Mazcare.

Last note, just so you know we have an awesome exhaust fabricator here in Atlanta: Jason @ EnthuzaCar. His exhausts are sold by most of the Miata vendors out there, so going directly to him (he's near Dobbins ARB) can save you some time and money, and it supports him directly.

That was my point. He said that other than the 90k engine rebuild he was satisfied with the reliability of that car. This car should be no less reliable with a turbo so it shouldn't be a problem.