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Old 01-12-2008, 06:52 PM   #1
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Default Advice on turbo charging my Miata, check what I have/getting is correct.

Hi Guys

I bought a 1989 MX5 here in the UK about 6 months back for the summer. I picked it up quite cheap as was just looking for a bit of top down fun. I wasn't looking for anything special as it is a 4th car so it is a little rough, i.e. needing some bodywork. I am going to be doing the bodywork shortly but the thought of turbo charging the car has got me (I already have a 370bhp Subaru WRX and a 220bhp MR2 turbo)

Ideally I would have liked the Begi starter kit as this is regarded as the best. Unfortunately the only UK distributor has said it will be 2 months until they get stock. I can't wait that long. I can get the Greddy kit pretty easy over here so probably going to go down that route. What I want to check is what else I need and anything I need to do to the car. I am going to be fitting the kit myself but taking it to a company to rolling road map the car. They are about 60 miles away.

So what I am buying/bought

Greddy kit with relief cuts in the manifold
XS Speed Intercooler
FM Single exit exhaust from cat back 2.5"
GReddy E-Manage Blue
Power Harness
Ignition Harness
Injector Harness
GReddy Pressure Sensor (3 BAR)
Pressure Sensor Harness
Set of 315cc Pink Top injectors (from rev2 mr2 guy who sold me the emanage gave them to me said they'd fit? Do I really need to replace the injectors?)

Do I need anything else?

The company who are going to map the car are not too keen on mappying the e-manage. They said:

"We have mapped the Greddy e-manage blue systems in the past but we have found the timing accuracy to be somewhat wayward in as much to cause severe detonation on its own accord.

we have found previously with the e-manage blue that it could go from running fine to detonating severally & then run fine again without actually doing anything on the vehicle as the timing control itself doesnít have enough accuracy in built to be reliable,

For example: the e-manage is accurate to +/- 1 degree of timing, however at 1 bar of boost +/-2 degrees is enough to either loose you 10+bhp approx or give the vehicle severe detonation to a degree of causing engine damage, as a comparison Our UnichipQ is accurate to 0.25+/- degree of timing which even under the most extreme conditions it is accurate enough not to give substantial power loss or let the vehicle suffer from even slight detonation if at all,"

Now I don't know if they are trying to sell me their UnichipQ or not but it is £550+ vat (£650), installed and mapped which is not bad considering the price of the e-manage, fitting and mapping. I don't really have any experience of these products as I run an apexi power FC in my subaru.

Once I've fitted all the above can I run the car to get it mapped? Will the E-manage have a base map on it? Could I drive the car but keep it off boost? Do I need anything to control the boost like an Apexi AVCR?

Many thanks for your help
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Old 01-12-2008, 08:04 PM   #2
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Just from a hardware standpoint, you need a BOV.

You might also want to look into ditching the Greddy oil return hose and tapping the oil-pan instead.
You're about the 500th guy to run EMB on a mild Greddy setup... just head down to the eManage forum and a dozen guys can send you MAP's to get you started.

eManage is one of the most common piggyback ECU's in existance, so I can't imagine why your shop should have any problem with it. You might want to look into other shops. There are quite a few guys on this forum from the UK... they should be able to towards a good shop.
Also, I'd never heard the term "rolling road", but I assume you mean a dyno?

EMB does not have onboard Electronic Boost Control (EBC). You can run a Manual Boost Controller (MBC) to keep costs down, but if you're set on EBC, you'll need some more electronics.

How about a wideband O2 sensor?

Also, Begi has been advertising MX5MAD as their UK distributor for a long time... I'd call Begi directly to see what the holdup on kits are before commiting to a Greddy kit.
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Old 01-12-2008, 08:14 PM   #3
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I haven't heard of any problems that severe with the EMB. I ran a GReddy with the EMB for 4 years. There are plenty of guys on this forum running the EMB at 12+ psi, including Olderguy who makes an Autotune that comes with a timing map and runs the injectors based on the narrowband AF signal.

You shouldn't have any problem driving your car to the tuners. Loosen up the wastgate actuator a bit just to be sure if you are worried about boost.

How much boost are you planning to run. At some point, you will probably have to ditch the rear end for something beefier.
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Old 01-12-2008, 08:26 PM   #4
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Hi mate, looks like you have everything you need to fit the Greddy kit there, although I would recommend a wideband O2 sensor such as the Innovate LC-1 or AEM UEGO wideband so you can monitor the air/fuel ratio if you plan to tune it yourself.

You only need bigger injectors if you're planning to up the boost from the stock 5psi, same with the intercooler. Although as you have them/will have them then you should be good for 8-10psi if you so wish
Just remember though, at those power levels your clutch & rear diff on the 1.6 will start to complain about all that power going through them, so plan to upgrade to maybe a 1.8flywheel & clutch and 1.8 diff sometime in the future.
And some 1.8 brake brackets & discs/pads would be a good idea.

Greddy Emanage is a good and popular piece of kit with a proven record. I think they're trying to sell you the Uniq chip (never heard of a 5 with one of those). If you plan to run with the 315cc injectors then the emanage blue will work just fine, but apparently it only supports injectors up to 320cc, so if you plan to up the power further in the future then I'd look at Emanage ultimate, Megasquirt, Adaptronic etc...

Using the Greddy kit straight out the box allows you to fit it & drive, but you have to set the base engine timing to 6degrees and this robs you of low down power. This is where the emanage comes into its own by allowing you to add ignition timing low down the rev range thereby greatly improving off boost performance, and adding extra fuel when on boost.
In my experience you can map the emanage yourself with a wideband O2 and laptop with a lot of help from other people, but my preferred method was to take it to a garage & let them put it on a dyno for a couple of hours to map it. They have way more sensors & knock detectors they can use to get a safe & powerful tune.

The Greddy kit is a great kit for the price, but be prepared to upgrade some areas of the kit, for example if you're getting the FM cat-back exgaust then it would make sense to upgrade the restrictive Greddy downpipe (I just fitted the XS-Speed replacement downpipe).
I posted a guide to fitting the Greddy kit on a certain UK mx5 forum which may help with installation as the instructions I got weren't all that great.

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Old 01-12-2008, 09:56 PM   #5
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that tuning place is full of BULL$#!T!!!

Remember that the emanage blue was designed to run on twin turbo supras and skyline GTR's, so do you really think they'd allow it to be so inaccurate....NO!, They are trying to sell you thier system because they obviously have little idea how to tune the emanage....when i dyno'd my car i spent two hours and did over 30 pulls and it was ACCURATE!

You will need to fit the 315's to get enough fuel...the stock injectors cannot flow enough fuel for any power.
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Old 01-13-2008, 04:58 AM   #6
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Hi Guys

Thanks for all your replies. I'll try to reply in order.

Quote:
Originally Posted by samnavy View Post
Just from a hardware standpoint, you need a BOV.

You might also want to look into ditching the Greddy oil return hose and tapping the oil-pan instead.
You're about the 500th guy to run EMB on a mild Greddy setup... just head down to the eManage forum and a dozen guys can send you MAP's to get you started.

eManage is one of the most common piggyback ECU's in existance, so I can't imagine why your shop should have any problem with it. You might want to look into other shops. There are quite a few guys on this forum from the UK... they should be able to towards a good shop.
Also, I'd never heard the term "rolling road", but I assume you mean a dyno?

EMB does not have onboard Electronic Boost Control (EBC). You can run a Manual Boost Controller (MBC) to keep costs down, but if you're set on EBC, you'll need some more electronics.

How about a wideband O2 sensor?

Also, Begi has been advertising MX5MAD as their UK distributor for a long time... I'd call Begi directly to see what the holdup on kits are before commiting to a Greddy kit.
So I need a BOV (any recommendations)
I've read about tapping the oil pan, this should be too hard. Is there anywhere I can buy the bits to do this?
Rolling road is a dyno yeah.
I don't really want to fit a manual boost controller. From tuning the Subaru the manual route was a no, no. I'd really prefer something like the AVCR I have on my subaru (which is set at 1.6bar :-) ) I don't know if I want to spend £250 on one though. Any ideas for a cheaper unit?
Lastly I know Begi are advertised on MX5MAD's website, but when I enquired they said there would be a few months delay in getting kits. They said this was because Bell were a small company and couldn't produce the kits quick. They are offering £100 discount on the first 10 purchased so it looks like they are trying to get an order of 10 together. I don't know if this is because it is the minimum trade purchase? Either way I can't wait that long. I emailed Bell to see if they'd ship to the UK, but they didn't even reply :-(

Quote:
Originally Posted by FHS View Post
How much boost are you planning to run. At some point, you will probably have to ditch the rear end for something beefier.
the maximum without blowing up the engine and box. I would looking for perhaps around 8/10psi?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jim-NA View Post
Hi mate, looks like you have everything you need to fit the Greddy kit there, although I would recommend a wideband O2 sensor such as the Innovate LC-1 or AEM UEGO wideband so you can monitor the air/fuel ratio if you plan to tune it yourself.

You only need bigger injectors if you're planning to up the boost from the stock 5psi, same with the intercooler. Although as you have them/will have them then you should be good for 8-10psi if you so wish
Just remember though, at those power levels your clutch & rear diff on the 1.6 will start to complain about all that power going through them, so plan to upgrade to maybe a 1.8flywheel & clutch and 1.8 diff sometime in the future.
And some 1.8 brake brackets & discs/pads would be a good idea.

Greddy Emanage is a good and popular piece of kit with a proven record. I think they're trying to sell you the Uniq chip (never heard of a 5 with one of those). If you plan to run with the 315cc injectors then the emanage blue will work just fine, but apparently it only supports injectors up to 320cc, so if you plan to up the power further in the future then I'd look at Emanage ultimate, Megasquirt, Adaptronic etc...

Using the Greddy kit straight out the box allows you to fit it & drive, but you have to set the base engine timing to 6degrees and this robs you of low down power. This is where the emanage comes into its own by allowing you to add ignition timing low down the rev range thereby greatly improving off boost performance, and adding extra fuel when on boost.
In my experience you can map the emanage yourself with a wideband O2 and laptop with a lot of help from other people, but my preferred method was to take it to a garage & let them put it on a dyno for a couple of hours to map it. They have way more sensors & knock detectors they can use to get a safe & powerful tune.

The Greddy kit is a great kit for the price, but be prepared to upgrade some areas of the kit, for example if you're getting the FM cat-back exgaust then it would make sense to upgrade the restrictive Greddy downpipe (I just fitted the XS-Speed replacement downpipe).
I posted a guide to fitting the Greddy kit on a certain UK mx5 forum which may help with installation as the instructions I got weren't all that great.

I don't ever plan to tune it myself. It is an area I know nothing about and would rather pay someone to do it so I don't blow the car up! Hence I don't think I'll need a wideband.

Will my mr2 315cc injectors fit straight in? What boost levels can I run with these?

Can the emanage change timing or do I need to do this manual?

I've seen the replacement downpipe. Do you know how much it is?

Quote:
Originally Posted by 4sfed5 View Post
that tuning place is full of BULL$#!T!!!

Remember that the emanage blue was designed to run on twin turbo supras and skyline GTR's, so do you really think they'd allow it to be so inaccurate....NO!, They are trying to sell you thier system because they obviously have little idea how to tune the emanage....when i dyno'd my car i spent two hours and did over 30 pulls and it was ACCURATE!

You will need to fit the 315's to get enough fuel...the stock injectors cannot flow enough fuel for any power.
I kind of thought they were talking BS and probably just trying to sell me their product.

Does anyone from the UK know where else I could take the car in Scotland?

thanks for all your help so far.
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Old 01-13-2008, 01:18 PM   #7
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At that power range, you will need a new clutch. I ran 8/10 psi on my stock rearend for around 3 years before it finally let go, but YMMV. I used the time to cobble my Torsen pieces together and only paid around $450-500 for everything.

You didn't list any FMU or AFPR. With either of those and and high pressure fuel pump, you'll be able to run well over 10 psi. You'll want to at some point, so plan accordingly.
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Old 01-13-2008, 01:24 PM   #8
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Quote:
I don't ever plan to tune it myself. It is an area I know nothing about and would rather pay someone to do it so I don't blow the car up! Hence I don't think I'll need a wideband.
It really isn't that difficult with the EMB. All you really need is a wideband and maybe an EGT gauge. You can street tune it conservatively and tweak it at the dyno. At some point, you will want to get in there and mess around with your maps because street conditions will vary enough to throw your AFs off. If you have to pay somebody to tune it everytime the weather changes, then plan on spending a lot of time and money at the dyno.
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