Anybody running a newer FMII kit? Thoughts on the manifold?
 

Better yet, is there anyone that has pics and / or experience with the current FM design and that of BEGI? The Absurdflow replacement for these? I know there aren't many of Tim's out there.

I was all set on getting an Absurdflow BEGI/FM replacement manifold but a couple of things have me second-guessing.

-Tubulars generally aren't as long lived as cast units and Tim is now doing a 2 year warranty instead of lifetime. (I don't blame him, but it may affect my decision).

-The Solidworks (I assume) images on FM's site look like there may be some internal flow management / diverter at the outlet on the FM mani? Otherwise it looks to my very untrained eye to be a sort of "cast tubular" design. Am I way off base on this?
http://www.flyinmiata.com/projects/t...manifold-2.jpg
(Caption: "We paid attention to inernal flow.")

I'm hoping to be in the 240-250 rwhp range so I know any of these will be fine with a gt2560. I was just hoping to get the best spool possible, in a reliable package.

Please don't turn this into an FM/BEGI is better than BEGI/FM thing. I like the contributions Tim Fodor has made to the community. He has proven his knowledge and skill, and I would like to buy from him. There are of course, other factors. I just don't want to pay more for something that is likely to not be as long lived unless there's a significant performance advantage.

My Miata is a street toy that I autocross and may do some HPDE stuff with once it's sorted to my satisfaction. Not looking to build a serious engine or tinker too much once I'm happy with it.

http://i43.tinypic.com/dadyt.jpg

this is what I see.

Go with tim's manifold and you wont be disapointed. He makes those tubular manifolds out of schedule 40 steel which is near indestructible. If you're worried about it not lasting, put a brace on it and it will last forever. If you're the least bit concerned about flow you'll go with Tim's design.

Besides, his newest BEGi/FM replacement manifold is just a work of art. When was the last time you saw a cast manifold and thought "man, that looks awesome!"

I weighed my new FM manifold and turbo assembled and it was around 37 pounds. A little heavy but I know it will live longer than me.

If I had the dough I can't think of a single reason not to go with Tim's work.

My AF manufeould is still very alive and lasted several track events longer than the cast piece (which is recently surfaced and available with the begi DP for $500 in the classifieds).

http://www.turbotimmurderedagirlwithchuckyz.com

I'm not saying that he did. But if he didn't, then why not just deny it?

That's not even remotely funny.

rharris PMed me the other day saying he was going to meet up with someone who he though might be ChuckyZ...he hasn't gotten back to me...

:sad2:

OP -
In all seriousness, I would stick with your initial thought of going with Tim's manifold. While the FM design is definitely better than a traditional log style manifold, it just cant compete with a true directed port tubular. And like others have mentioned, his shit is built to last, and I have no doubt that it would probably outlast the car.

Another good reason. While schedule 40 steel isn't light, its going to weight less than that cast manifold by far.

FWIW I haven't weighed my schedule 10 stainless manifold yet but I bet it weighs less than 7lbs.

So I see a lot of argument for Tim's mani. Trust me, it's what my heart wants...I appreciate fine art. My wallet however wants the FM or BEGI unit.

Brain, you really think that's how the air flows? You have a lot more knowledge than I about it, but it looks like there are internal elements in there that might direct the flow outward and minimize if not prevent the 1-4 crash.

It's OBVIOUS that the BEGI unit accounts for this, so there are no questions to be asked there. I'd love to see something more scientific. Perhaps there's been insufficient testing......

I'd rather replace an AF unit every 5 years than have the same BEGi/FM unit forever.

only seen one installed in person, haven't looked at the internal flow, but that's how it appears to me.

Cool. Good, honest answer.

If you want I can take pictures of it installed tonight..not sure if that helps

I just don't want to be replacing these things after I'm retired. I don't really know how to handle it...maybe some sort of prorated setup? I'm open to suggestions from people more business savy.

If durability is your #1 priority above all else, go with a cast manifold.

No kidding. Like I said, I get it.

I never would have considered a tubular before yours at all, but they seem to be well built. All told, I'm looking at somewhere around a $400-500 difference between your piece and an FM 'kit' with their mani. I don't mind the price difference if the thing lasts me 5 years and provides a noticeable performance (spool) benefit.

My real motivation in starting this thread was to find out if anyone had any real analysis of the current FM design. Perhaps I made it too personal. I was kind of hoping somebody had a good pic of the inside of one of those units, or some real data on them.

Personally I am doing the mental shopping thing all the time right now. And just my .02, but I look at it like this:

What do I get for spending x more dollars?

You can get a basic decent cast Begi/FM type mani for about 400 bucks IIRC. Which will not have a EWG provision.

You can get a quality tubular from a memeber here starting at around 600, maybe a bit more, maybe a bit less IIRC.

Pretty much everyone who has really talked about these units has done a great amount of track abuse but also does some street driving too. And they swear by a quality tubular. And not just for power, but for a much lower boost threshold and durability, which is usually the #2 problem people have with a tubular after price.

For me, personally, I will spend the extra 200 bucks to get better boost threshold by at least a few hundred RPM, better spool, another 10-20 (or more?) WHP and a proper EWG. 200 bucks more for those benies is about as cheap as anyone even in the age of Ebay can hope for. Excellent service from AF, Wayne Curr, or ARTECH is icing on the cake.

Just MHO. And by the way, I am cheap. Like really cheap. Like single ply TP and Old Milwaukee cheap.

Thanks for the offer, but I want to see the inside.

http://www.flyinmiata.com/index.php?...21020%20%20DUC
$395 FM mani

http://www.bellengineering.net/produ...products_id=33
$433 BEGI mani

http://www.absurdflow.com/begireplacement.html
My direct replacement for the above 2 is $600 (egr extra)

But yeah, my mani & downpipe together, to bolt onto a factory type exhaust would be $450-500 more than FM's mani/downpipe combo.
http://www.flyinmiata.com/index.php?...0%20%201990-93
FM's mani & downpipe, $750

I would like to know what the inside of the FM mani looks like as well. Perhaps Keith will chime in with a photo. A quick email to them usually results in what you're looking for.

I don't see anything personal about your posts. :confused:

By "personal" I meant that I could have just asked techie questions and left my situation out of it. It's my loquacious nature.

I got that figure from kit and partial kit prices that were quoted to me. It's the difference in a full FM kit with 3" exhaust and the same kit minus mani and replacing with yours. Individually, you're only like $200 different. When I was looking at those numbers, it was an easy choice to send you a check. :-)

Let me qualify that figure by saying it's off the top of my head. I haven't had time today to actually do the math.

If it really comes down to $200-$250 I'm going AF.

You can check the spool data in the spool data thread, you might get some insight into how well the manifolds flow. Not sure if there is any absurdflow stuff in there or not, but I just posted up my data with the FM Manifold. I'm sure there is more to it than that, but maybe just a piece of the puzzle.

I'd like to see the first post in this thread placed on the turbo section of miata.net, and see their responses. FM looks at that site a lot more I think.

Besides what's sitting in my garage at the moment, there's only 1 AF replacement mani out there ("version 1"). I don't know what the current owner has done with it if anything. I do know his signature is "absurdflow log manifold" which it AIN'T. I dynoed it on my car and got good results compared to an equivalent BEGI setup on the same dyno, but that's about it. No FM stuff around this area it seems.

I'll post it over there just for fun.

Modified a bit and posted on the stuffy board.

The popular notion of 1 and 4 'colliding' in log manifolds always makes me laugh.

I mean obviously the exhaust will just flow into the turbine...I was just being funnz. But it's no joke that a good collector makes a world of difference...it's been seen here time and time again.

I've always figured that it cant possibly be that bad since so many people run log manifolds with good numbers. I can understand it in my head visually, but cannot explain it.

Yeah, I hear ya. It is funny. It's troof that proper collectors make a big difference.

Yeah, I've wondered about this. I really kind of took it for granted that it was significant since BEGI went to the trouble to put that divider in their manifold, and people bring it up all the time.

Since the cylinders don't fire at the same time, is it really a big deal?

It is a 'big deal', but not because exhaust pulses collide (they don't because only one cyl fires at a time).

The big deal is that logs dissipate pulse energy and encourage cylinder cross-talk. When you have a proper collector, it is much harder for an exhaust pulse to reverse direction up another cylinder's exhaust runner. In turn you get more pulse energy directed to the turbine and less of it trying to contaminate other cylinders.

Collectors are good mkay?

I am running a newer FM cast tubi. No problems from me. Then again, I am not Mr. Ever Last HP...I'm running 13psi on it with a 2560R and can say I am happy with it..doing daily driving autoX and some track days. I had an older FM/BEGI design one and I can feel/see a difference between the square design that BEGi is still using and the new FM design.

Sorry, no pics of the inside.

Didn't you break both of those?

I cracked a BEGi/FM square one, broke a newish FM tubi....but the latest FM one is holding up just fine (they switched foundries). I have a few ideas as to why the first cast tubi failed, but I don't want to go into it...but I will say if I thought it was bad quality, I wouldn't have put another one back on.

Fm has had two versions of the cast tubi. The older version had a boarder around the FM logo, the newer cast ones do not. The newer ones are also improved when it comes to bolting it up to the head, FM made sure to make the studs/bolts easy to access/tighten. I wanted to kill the other two manifolds when it came to a couple of the nuts...but when I put this last one on it was much easier to do it becuse of some minor design changes.

Thanks! All good information.

I didn't realize I had the only one, and sorry about the mis-labeling in my sig, Tim. I haven't dynoed my car, I am running the stock wastegate actuator on my T25 (which I couldn't run with the previous FM manifold) at the stock 8psi or so level. I have no complaints at all about it, I love it. It is easier to install than the FM mani, weighs significantly less, and allowed the stock clocking of the turbo so I could get rid of my crappy hacked bracket and ebay actuator. Fit is perfect as well, my FM downpipe bolted right up with no leaks and I didn't have to adjust anything downstream in the exhaust. I wouldn't hesitate to recommend it to anyone.

Ha! Nice, I should use this under the "testimonial" section of my website, if I had a good pic of your car too. nice update to the signature too :) I'm glad you like the mani, I sure did when I used it for that week. Once I sell the twins I'm going to rock that manifold again :)

EDIT: Did you notice any spool difference with my manifold, or "seat of the pants" difference in power at the same boost setting?

Yes! Tell us how it feels. I assume the version 2 will be more difficult to install, but I don't think I care much.

I have a new FM mani sitting right next to me. If I had a camera, I would pull the turbo off and take pictures for you guys.

Damn....almost an excuse to go to Louisville.

I like your town. Good beer everywhere and that great little district with the pubs, coffee shops, record and music stores. Can't remember what the area is called.

We visited and went to Ray's Monkey House. Nimbus was a really nice dude. Fed us some free beer and hung out to chat until after 2 AM. We helped him clean up.

PS...you MUST get hold of a camera before you install that thing.

Probably Bardstown Rd. area. I actually just moved here from Columbus. You can come down and bring a camera :). I should have one coming with my buddies from Columbus when they come down

I'm in Columbus...contemplating Austin TX in a year or so.....Tired of the winters here.

Send your buddies by, I'll loan you a camera if you'll return it. Or sell you one cheap!! :-)

I didn't have the car running right with the FM manifold, so unfortunately no spool data to compare. (I bought the FM manifold cracked from another member and had it welded up by a local shop, but it cracked almost immediately, at which point I bought the AF replacement). I will say that the boost response is silly fast compared to my former 300ZXs. By all means, feel free to use my testimony. I don't really have any decent pics, but I will get some soon for you to use, including the requisite engine bay shots.

When are you installing, Craig? I have a camera.

I had a new FM mani sitting right next to me 5 years ago. If I had a time machine, I would pull the turbo out of the box and take pictures for you guys.

As with any forum, if there's a particular topic you want us to chime in please let us know. We can't monitor the entire internet.

Want pictures of the current FM manifold? We have a few here, so I shot some pictures for you. They're not significantly different than the old SolidWorks models, although there have been numerous detail changes and the change to a Utah-based foundry made a big difference in quality.

This is just a normal manifold pulled off the shelf. It's going in the next turbo kit to head out.

http://www.flyinmiata.com/turbos/images/IMG_5253.jpg
http://www.flyinmiata.com/turbos/images/IMG_5255.jpg
http://www.flyinmiata.com/turbos/images/IMG_5249.jpg
http://www.flyinmiata.com/turbos/images/IMG_5250.jpg
http://www.flyinmiata.com/turbos/images/IMG_5251.jpg

Compared to the typical log manifold, that looks pretty good. I have to ask though, why not have the outer 2 runners curve a bit and make them be a bit more directed? No noticeable difference? Manufacturing issues? Cost?

I don't have a good answer for that. I wasn't personally involved in the manifold design, so I'm not sure where the design decisions came from.

Thanks for chiming in.

Thanks, Keith!

Yeah Keith, thanks!

EDIT: What's up with the threads in this pic, particularly the upper right hole? Looks like snot, maybe just because it's out of focus?
http://www.flyinmiata.com/turbos/images/IMG_5255.jpg

Looks like a bit of ceramic on the threads. We ship these assembled, so we'll chase 'em first. We are having a few discussions with our coating shop about masking.

Keith, thanks for the pictures. It looks exactly like the one sitting right next to me that I just took the turbo off of. It is hard to see, but the 1 and 4 runners do go perpendicular to the turbo flange


Memorial day weekend, probably thursday till whenever we are done. Still need to decide if I want to use my coworker's garage or do it here and have full access to my tools. No power hookup for a drill here though...

They make cordless drills ;)



And extension cords...


Just saying :)

If you had a cordless drill it would be very helpful...

Just saying :)

I do, but it is already at my new apartment in Indy. Talk to Mike (Webhitch), or post on 502 - I'm sure someone local has one you could borrow. I do have the tap and bits you need for the oil pan (I have both 3/8" and 1/2" NPT taps), though.

Already got both of those, but thanks. I'll try 502 when it gets closer if I decide to do it outside