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Old 01-10-2012, 08:46 AM   #21
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Can the inconel studs, unless you already have an iron manifold. Buy the v-clamp piece. Cost and headaches wane quickly.

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Old 01-10-2012, 03:27 PM   #22
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FM. Especially if you don't know how to wrench.
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Old 01-13-2012, 11:02 PM   #23
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I would go with the most mature setup, known to be easy to install. FM.

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Old 01-24-2012, 08:25 AM   #24
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I think most experienced racers would seriously challenge the idea that the simplest, easiest to install turbo is the best one for the race track. Might substitute "laugh at" for "challenge."

A remote wastegate is more complicated than an integral. Works far better and makes more power.....if properly done. Or same power at less boost. harder to install.

V - clamps work better than studs. (easier to install too.......... opps)

10 mm studs are stronger, by far, than 8 mm's. 10'a are harder to use due to space.

Separated gasses dnpipes make more power..... or same power at less boost. Tighter fit, harder to install.

Metal charge tubes shed more heat, therefore, make more power. Or same power at less boost. harder to install.

Stainless oil/water lines are tops. more difficult to install than rubber hoses.

Better intercoolers make more power. Or same power at less boost. no added difficulty

And.................


Let me ask this; If one purchased a more complicated piece and took another 20 hours to install it, ran a year's worth of trouble free events, no broken studs, no failed rubber hoses, etc, and with a bit more power (or less boost), would you look back on those 20 hours as time miss spent?

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Old 01-24-2012, 12:43 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by Corky Bell View Post
Metal charge tubes shed more heat, therefore, make more power. Or same power at less boost. harder to install.
And introduce several additional potential failure points. Trying to track down which coupling has loosened in a hot engine bay on the side of the road, at night, is no fun whatsoever.
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Old 01-24-2012, 01:09 PM   #26
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And introduce several additional potential failure points. Trying to track down which coupling has loosened in a hot engine bay on the side of the road, at night, is no fun whatsoever.
When I was running all my Begi pipes there were 3 couplers on each side. It would take me less then 2min to figure out which one had blown out when it has happened to me. All of mine were also easily accessible and quick to tighten. You just have to use a little forethought and make sure the the clamps are pointed in an easy to get to direction.
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Old 01-24-2012, 02:02 PM   #27
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When I was running all my Begi pipes there were 3 couplers on each side. It would take me less then 2min to figure out which one had blown out when it has happened to me. All of mine were also easily accessible and quick to tighten. You just have to use a little forethought and make sure the the clamps are pointed in an easy to get to direction.
Be that as it may, they are still additional point of failure (likely ones too, given that you, me and many others have experienced it). Corky was talking about trading install complications for reliability. For the parts in question, a single piece of formed hose is both easier to install and ultimately more reliable. OEMs, who treasure reliability above almost all else (at least for issues that will likely rear their head during the warranty period), generally use formed hoses, regardless of the fact they might cause the intake temps to soar by a few degrees.

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Old 01-24-2012, 10:24 PM   #28
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pre-formed hoses are easier to mass produce, the reason they are OEM
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Old 01-24-2012, 10:57 PM   #29
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We have spent considerable time, effort, and engineering to assure that IF a hose ever slips off, it will do so only on a rainy day. Further, one must be entering a freeway into five O'clock traffic. And, one must also be wearing a business suit and neck tie. It is also necessary that the wife, son, or daughter has quietly removed all tools and shop rags from the car. Added to all that, the installer had to neglect the specific instructions regarding how to install ................... a hose and clamp.

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Old 01-25-2012, 01:17 AM   #30
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Corky, I appreciate the self-deprecating tone, I really do. That's the way I tend to deal with life's inevitable trials and tribulations - it's a great way to stay sane.

Regardless, I've experienced the inopportune hose pop-off, first and second hand, more times in my life than I have fingers. Seriously. My first kit, a much modified Greddy (which had essentially the same system of metal pipes and 3 hose connections per side), my brother's FM II kit (the original version, which was designed by you), a fellow club member's FM II kit (same vintage), another club member's BEGI 1.5 (almost an FM II), and a few others thrown in for good measure - every single one of us has had to lie on the ground on the side of the road trying to find a hose that has popped off enough to create a massive boost leak, but not quite enough to be obvious at a glance. If it's on the cool side, great. If not, burnt fingers were par for the course when trying to wrestle the parts together again.

Since I've gone to the new style FM II kit, with the formed hoses, I've never had a hose pop off, and I'm running significantly more boost now than I was back in those days.

All I'm saying is that metal pipes may be the last word in efficiency, but they are definitely not all that and a bag of chips with respect to reliability.
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Old 01-25-2012, 01:33 AM   #31
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Shrug. I have run 35 psi with my begi pipes, couplers and clamps a d they did not pop off. Also over 500hp.
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Old 01-25-2012, 09:00 AM   #32
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Doesn't it boil down to this:

The kit maker must supply a proper bead roll (or other such feature).

A T- bolt clamp.

A tough, high temp resistant and hydrocarbon proof hose.

Instructions regarding assembly.

If the kit maker does that, then the responsibility shifts to the assembler.

Having never lost a hose off my own vehicle (since 1973), I would find it most difficult to argue that four hose connections, rather than six, are a good trade off for all the features of: etc, etc, etc ............ I'd rather have just one metal braid oil line....

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Old 01-26-2012, 12:02 AM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Corky Bell View Post
Doesn't it boil down to this:

The kit maker must supply a proper bead roll (or other such feature).

A T- bolt clamp.

A tough, high temp resistant and hydrocarbon proof hose.

Instructions regarding assembly.

If the kit maker does that, then the responsibility shifts to the assembler.

Having never lost a hose off my own vehicle (since 1973), I would find it most difficult to argue that four hose connections, rather than six, are a good trade off for all the features of: etc, etc, etc ............ I'd rather have just one metal braid oil line....

corky
The whole discussion is moot Corky. Neither you or FM make a "track" kit. Unless you want this to turn into a thread on who's broke a FM or Bell kit on track I'd suggest you stay out of threads regarding FI track cars. Street and track are two different animals. When you take the time to actually build and TEST a kit on the track...

To the OP, I would build a kit based on absurdflow/artech hot parts, rotrex, or wait for Savingtons kit.

Edit: So it doesn't seem that I'm bashing I like your intercoolers, Corky.
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Old 01-26-2012, 10:11 AM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Corky Bell View Post
Neither you or FM make a "track" kit. Street and track are two different animals. When you take the time to actually build and TEST a kit on the track...

Edit: So it doesn't seem that I'm bashing I like your intercoolers, Corky.

Goodness, I sure thought my efforts at building a piece with a four into one weld el header with wall thickness of 3/16, V-clamp turbo, V-clamp remote wastegate, and V-clamp downpipe connections, straighter dnpipe exit and straighter compressor inlet was a decent attempt a creating race worthy hardware. Available today...

Regarding "test," maybe I should name the cars running our stuff on tracks. We get the feedback, the do's and don't's, the encouragements and the criticisms.

Should it be that I need to do the testing myself? You can't imagine how much I would love to be doing exactly that. It would seem that I have the credentials.

Thanks for the comment on IC's. Even better things are coming.....

Corky[/QUOTE]
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Old 01-26-2012, 10:22 AM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Corky Bell View Post
Goodness, I sure thought my efforts at building a piece with a four into one weld el header with wall thickness of 3/16, V-clamp turbo, V-clamp remote wastegate, and V-clamp downpipe connections, straighter dnpipe exit and straighter compressor inlet was a decent attempt a creating race worthy hardware. Available today...
Valid point In My Honest Opinion.
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Old 01-26-2012, 04:44 PM   #36
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Corky, please link me to your pnp track kit. Next please explain what testing was completed to call it a track kit. If you make it this far then please have any of your customers running that kit post their lap times for whatever track they are running. We should be able to get to the bottom of this and hopefully welcome a new track ready kit to the community.
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Old 01-26-2012, 04:54 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by Corky Bell View Post
Goodness, I sure thought my efforts at building a piece with a four into one weld el header with wall thickness of 3/16, V-clamp turbo, V-clamp remote wastegate, and V-clamp downpipe connections, straighter dnpipe exit and straighter compressor inlet was a decent attempt a creating race worthy hardware. Available today...

Regarding "test," maybe I should name the cars running our stuff on tracks. We get the feedback, the do's and don't's, the encouragements and the criticisms.

Should it be that I need to do the testing myself? You can't imagine how much I would love to be doing exactly that. It would seem that I have the credentials.

Thanks for the comment on IC's. Even better things are coming.....

Corky
[/QUOTE]

Speaking of this, any ETA on details of the new kit?
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Old 01-26-2012, 05:09 PM   #38
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If you make it this far then please have any of your customers running that kit post their lap times for whatever track they are running. .
Sometimes I wonder if there is another group of "wholesome" Miata types around here who avoid us.


Edit: I wonder about it, but then I realize that if there were, we would have captured and ground them into a hallucinogenic powder by now.

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Old 01-26-2012, 08:16 PM   #39
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Regarding "test," maybe I should name the cars running our stuff on tracks. We get the feedback, the do's and don't's, the encouragements and the criticisms.
Perhaps you should. Be sure to include their laptimes in relation to Spec Miata records at various tracks - it's all information you should have readily available.

Quote:
Should it be that I need to do the testing myself? You can't imagine how much I would love to be doing exactly that. It would seem that I have the credentials.
Speaking as someone who's been forced to R&D the products of other vendors in the past, I think my customers appreciate the extensive in-house testing we perform on our products.
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Old 01-27-2012, 02:34 AM   #40
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Speaking as someone who's been forced to R&D the products of other vendors in the past, I think my customers appreciate the extensive in-house testing we perform on our products.
At this point I will only by something track tested with lap times to back-up the stress for a few dozen hours and it will have a "no questions asked" near lifetime warranty. I'm willing to pay for this of course because I have better things to do that waste expensive track time chasing problems when I should be collecting trophies. When you factor in $300 in track time, fuel to get there, hotel to stay over night, possibly a tow truck ride home...paying to replace a broken part is salt in a wound.

If someone else is testing their stuff on competitive cars with competitive drivers, why not tell us about it? Additionally, if there is someone in Texas driving the hell out of a Miata while testing BEGi parts, why aren't they running TXMC? We really aren't that scary. We are drunk and armed, but pretty friendly.
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