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MSM Build thread

 
Old 05-23-2017, 02:02 PM
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Hey guys,

I've been lurking the forums for nearly a year now, while reading up all the different build threads I could. I started with a 2000 SE miata that I kept stock and recently sold after buying my MSM.



I decided that I will upgrade the MSM over the summer to get the most out of the stock turbo (~220whp) while keeping it reliable. It should give me a good idea on a future EFR turbo build and I'll have a car I can learn how to drive on the track without killing myself If all goes well, a built motor and Borg Warner turbo will make it's way in this car in a few years.

Here's what I'm planning to do:

DIY coolant reroute
Begi intake kit (open to alternatives)
Begi downpipe (open to alternatives)
Begi midpipe (got a good deal on it)
Autometer boost gauge
AEM uego wideband
rx8 420cc injectors (recommended by tuner)
Reverent built MS3 basic
Fox suspension (another good deal)
195/50R15 RS4 (already bought)
Roll bar

The suspension and tires are already bought and my friend is selling me his Begi midpipe for $60 so I'll stick with these but I'm open to any alternatives for the rest. I wanted to go with the Flow Force injectors but my tuner told me it's overkill and I'd be better suited with some cheaper rx8 injectors. I know I'll need an intercooler for the track and I'm leaning towards the recommended vibrant one but I'm reading it's a pain in the *** to install in the MSM. The other options (FM and Begi) are a lot more expensive and I'd rather go DIY if it's not too complicated to install. My budget is around $4000 CDN ($3000 USD) and I'm in Canada so it makes the exchange a killer.

Right now I'm in the process of doing the coolant reroute but the last stud I need to remove before installing the spacer is giving me a hard time.
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Old 05-23-2017, 09:18 PM
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Did you use the two nut method on the stud?
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Old 05-23-2017, 09:29 PM
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Yea I used two of the nuts that I took off from the housing to do it but my wrench keeps slipping and denting the nut. I have to go buy some sturdier nuts and try it again but I'm scared of snapping or stripping the stud.

I expect this thread to be filled with this kind of problems as I'm new to wrenching on my cars past oil/tires/etc changes. This whole build will be a learning experience for me.
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Old 05-23-2017, 09:35 PM
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How are good injectors overkill? Plus the RX8's are 440cc IIRC, so if you truly do intend to upgrade to an EFR down the road, then you will quickly grow past the abilities of the RX8 injectors and need bigger ones anyways. Do it once.
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Old 05-23-2017, 09:52 PM
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The efr build will be in at least 2-3 years and might be a different car. I think I'll need the 1000 cc too. Is there a noticeable difference between the two? I rather not go against my tuners advice but if you guys think it's worth it then I'll go with the FF. The rx8's are also $150 cheaper for me.
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Old 05-24-2017, 03:52 AM
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Originally Posted by Noobdle View Post
The efr build will be in at least 2-3 years and might be a different car. I think I'll need the 1000 cc too. Is there a noticeable difference between the two? I rather not go against my tuners advice but if you guys think it's worth it then I'll go with the FF. The rx8's are also $150 cheaper for me.
Are they real RX8 injectors? I think the most recent info has been that all the cheap sets flooding online now are Chinese knockoffs that do not work as well. For injectors I don't trust getting Chinese injectors that don't work properly, that could then cause my motor to blow. Peace of mind is easily worth the price difference to me to know I have an injector that won't **** me.
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Old 05-24-2017, 06:21 AM
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Originally Posted by shuiend View Post
Are they real RX8 injectors? I think the most recent info has been that all the cheap sets flooding online now are Chinese knockoffs that do not work as well. For injectors I don't trust getting Chinese injectors that don't work properly, that could then cause my motor to blow. Peace of mind is easily worth the price difference to me to know I have an injector that won't **** me.
​​​​​​Tuner is selling them so I'm assuming they're real. He has experience tuning with them and told me they're very smooth. I have a friend that got his msm tuned by him with the same injectors and it's a smooth car that idles with no problems. I know injectors are not the place to cheap at but if they work good, why spend more money.
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Old 05-24-2017, 08:39 AM
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If RX8 injectors are anything like RX7 (which they are), is it safe to say they are only used for 100% WOT state?? Meaning, for part throttle and idle situations the injectors were simply not designed for??

I remember reading this when looking at injectors and why, people who go with secondary injectors do encounter some tune problems (could probably be tuned around).

But, the tuner recommending the injectors that it turns out he is selling, just seems like he is trying to pawn a product on the buyer lol.

If you are going stand alone, just go ahead and get a set of flow force and call it a day.
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Old 05-24-2017, 10:54 AM
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Either get flow forces or cheap out and test your luck with a DIY kit for mustang injectors. The idle was ridiculously easy to get right compared to my stock injectors (which have more in common with the RX8's than the FF's).

I put the mustang kit together for like 180 or so?
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Old 05-24-2017, 11:46 AM
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I've got basically the same car and same 'build', the Flow Force 640s made sense and left room to not have issues. This is from an old cheap/used when possible guy...

No EFR or built motor in the future though for me, but the 640s do leave a good amount of room and when you build the motor you can always switch out injectors then if you really need the 1000cc.
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Old 05-24-2017, 12:41 PM
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As a fellow MSM guy just wanted to chime in on the intercooler choice. My first big upgrade was FM's little enchilada. When I placed order it was back ordered initially as they were out of 19" intercoolers. I talked to one of their tech support guys and he recommended the 15" as the shape was good for letting air through to radiator. I think this was valid as it seems a lot of people have trouble with the big rectangular ones that block a lot of airflow. The brackets work well for mounting. When you go to megasquirt you might have some challenges getting the dual fans to function properly as MSM controls fans differently than all the other NBs. I had trouble with this but eventually sorted it out. Just a heads up.
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Old 05-24-2017, 07:06 PM
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Buy FF or ID injectors now, don't waste your money on RX8 injectors which you'll replace anyway and may not even be genuine.
ID publish all the configuration data you'll need to configure them on the MS3 so you can just plug those values in and not need to "dick around" figuring out what works best.

Install a SpeedHut Boost gauge in the dummy Oil Pressure gauge slot (I call this "The '95MSM Boost Gauge Mod" since he pioneered it and it's the best/natural location for a boost gauge - see https://forum.miata.net/vb/showthread.php?t=623680 for the condensed thread and In-dash Boost Gauge for the original thread - LOTS of good info there).

I prefer Innovate AFR gauges over AEM, Innovate was one of the first to provide a digital output (more accurate than analog and provides additional info that ECUs can use to determine if the sensor data is valid (or still warming up).



195/50R15 tyres probably too narrow, you'll need more grip.

Do more research on the coolant re-route - you wont need it at your expected power levels and will only make cooling worse without the appropriate gasket.

I prefer the Mazdaspeed AEM CAI to BEGI or FM (FM intake puts the air intake filter in the WRONG spot!).
Billybunter on the mx5cartalk.com forum has had both the AEM and BEGi CAIs and said that the AEM produced more power.

Be prepared for fitting issues with the BEGi downpipe and midpipe.
FM's quality is MUCH better and will bolt straight in with no issues but the downpipe design is crap (no separated wastegate and exhaust channels and it has a 2" "pinch point" on the front flange so that it can mate to the OEM turbo flange - this essentially negates the fact that the rest of the exhaust is 2.5" since it's a "choke point").
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Old 05-25-2017, 06:29 AM
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Originally Posted by Lokiel View Post

Be prepared for fitting issues with the BEGi downpipe and midpipe.
FM's quality is MUCH better and will bolt straight in with no issues but the downpipe design is crap (no separated wastegate and exhaust channels and it has a 2" "pinch point" on the front flange so that it can mate to the OEM turbo flange - this essentially negates the fact that the rest of the exhaust is 2.5" since it's a "choke point").
Ehh that's not how flow works, restriction is accumulated. This means you add up each restriction in the exhaust for the overall pressure drop from end to end. Yes that choke point isn't ideal but all that strait pipe and bends also add to the overall restriction. Also I don't really see why this such a big deal if that's the turbo flange size. There are plenty of fine downpipes without a separated wastegate pipe, yeah it's better but it's not junk if it's not.
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Old 05-25-2017, 09:41 AM
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Also, wouldn't the reroute be beneficial even if the goal is 220?
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Old 05-25-2017, 09:47 AM
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Originally Posted by ridethecliche View Post
Also, wouldn't the reroute be beneficial even if the goal is 220?
I've had overheating issues at stock power. Hopefully the reroute will take care of that and by the time it will be at 220 whp, I'll have a bigger intercooler to help cool it down.
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Old 05-25-2017, 09:53 AM
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Originally Posted by ridethecliche View Post
Also, wouldn't the reroute be beneficial even if the goal is 220?
The reroute certainly won't hurt cooling even with the revised NB2 gasket, there was some debate on whether overall cooling distribution was better with the revised gasket or the old style gasket while running a reroute, I've never seen anyone argue cooling would be worse than stock. Keep in mind the reroute doesn't improve overall cooling, it just keeps the head temps more even.

An intercooler will do nothing to prevent overheating, most likely it'll make it worse because it'll block the radiator. Bigger / better radiators and ducting improve heat rejection and that's where your focus should be.

There's a huge Miata cooling thread on this very site, spend some time reading through that.
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Old 05-25-2017, 07:53 PM
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I thought the MSM used the 99-00 head gasket. You were just referring to the NB2 gasket as an aside right? Please correct me if I'm wrong re: the MSM having the NB2 head gasket.
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Old 05-25-2017, 08:44 PM
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See timk's posts in this thread: https://www.miataturbo.net/engine-pe...reroute-77744/

Coolant re-route on an MSM should be on your "low priority list", if you're having overheating issues then the first thing you need to address is air flow through the radiator.

Like timk, I also used a Maruha spacer with a VDO CLT sensor in the front of the engine on my MSM and only noted 2*C difference in temperature (was using Torque to read the rear OEM CLT sensor and PLX gauge to monitor the front VDO CLT sensor.

Also, if you still have the "token" OEM intercooler and you're in a hot climate, it will heatsoak quickly at the track so bump this up in priority if you want to drive at the track on hot days.
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Old 05-25-2017, 09:00 PM
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Originally Posted by ridethecliche View Post
I thought the MSM used the 99-00 head gasket. You were just referring to the NB2 gasket as an aside right? Please correct me if I'm wrong re: the MSM having the NB2 head gasket.
No, the MSM has a 99-00 style (no VVT) head, but uses the 01-05 two COP system. The head gasket is also the same as the 01-05 engines. The MSM is all sorts of dumb decisions.
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Old 05-26-2017, 12:48 AM
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Originally Posted by Chilicharger665 View Post
No, the MSM has a 99-00 style (no VVT) head, but uses the 01-05 two COP system. The head gasket is also the same as the 01-05 engines. The MSM is all sorts of dumb decisions.
Thanks for the clarification. That makes my head spin...
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