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Rusty Turbines, and other country music legends

Old 09-05-2018, 11:39 PM
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Default Rusty Turbines, and other country music legends

Has anyone ever seen this? I took apart my GT2860's and found this. Looks like the low point of where the turbo sits collect water then rusts in the scroll. WTF? Had I seen this earlier I would have gotten the NiResist housings. Is this common with cast iron housings? I spend the $$$ to get new housing extrude honed before I found this. Last one is new extrude honed housing.

I was running C16/100 mix for fuel.
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Last edited by k24madness; 09-06-2018 at 12:10 AM.
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Old 09-06-2018, 12:47 AM
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I've never seen it that bad. Ouch
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Old 09-06-2018, 07:37 AM
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Is it rust or is it rust colored lead?
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Old 09-06-2018, 11:16 AM
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Itís magnetic so itís not lead.

I did some more digging on the web and leaded fuel combustion byproducts are very corrosive. Thatís gotta be whatís going on. I planned to shift away from that anyway.
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Old 09-06-2018, 11:25 AM
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Rusty Turbines would be a good name for a gritty old country-music singer who gravitates towards the aerospace crowd.
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Old 09-06-2018, 11:35 AM
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First thing I did when I saw your thread is google for c16 content, but VP fuels website gave me pages/walls of text so I gave up. Makes sense. Do you start the car for short periods of time often? Or does it get fully warmed up and/or flogged every time.

If you do lots of cold starts without burning off all the condensation, I bet your pcv system looks really nasty too
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Old 09-06-2018, 11:58 AM
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I don't usually use it for short trips. Most times it's a 30 min+ journey.

Would E85 be worse?
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Old 09-06-2018, 12:01 PM
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Not sure but I doubt it.
While being supposedly more corrosive and water absorbing than pump gas, I've not seen it cause this much damage since I started messing with it in 2011, and every high hp turbo car I've done since then is on e85.
I think your solution of switching to a better hotside material is probably best in this situation
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Old 09-06-2018, 12:02 PM
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My efr turbo was used origionally with c16. after just 50 hrs of use, the turbine blades took a beating. My speculation was lead deposits hitting the blades at 150,000 rpm.
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Old 09-06-2018, 12:11 PM
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@ 18psi, to swap turbines now will set me back $1k (two + extrude hone + tax etc) and the only option I have is NiResist. Not really the greatest either. I really need to tackle the problem right and go stainless turbine. That involves a LOT of fab work. I wonder if ceramic coating will buy me some time?
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Old 09-06-2018, 12:22 PM
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I'd be really nervous coating the inside. it tends to chip off on normal housings, I can only imagine it being even worse on a setup like yours
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Old 09-06-2018, 12:41 PM
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You should swap engines with Aidanj. His burns enough oil to protect the turbine from rust.
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Old 09-06-2018, 12:49 PM
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@18psi, thanks for coating feedback.

Would NiResist be a big improvement over the ductile iron? If it is then I may as well bite the bullet now.
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Old 09-06-2018, 01:10 PM
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Originally Posted by k24madness View Post
@18psi, thanks for coating feedback.

Would NiResist be a big improvement over the ductile iron? If it is then I may as well bite the bullet now.
My understanding is that there's a whole plethora of Ni-Resist branded alloys, but you're still just adding additional alloying components to "grey iron" (or iron with graphite parcipitates), which does not form any protective oxide layer like stainless. It will, depending on alloy (levels of nickel and chromium), form some protective carbides in the microstructure. From my reading of the rather sales-y technical documents, in a corrosive environment (hot inert gases with oil vapor and gasoline mixed in, e.g. exhaust for instance) the main benefit is predicable, consistently even corrosion across a surface at a reduced rate compared to classic grey iron. This is very useful for high stress applications where the pitting typical of normal iron corrosion could concentrate stress in unpredictable areas and cause a fatigue failure. So, for a lot less money than stainless for large assemblies (think multi-ton castings), they (let's say an oil field company for example) could use Ni-Resist, study the rate of corrosion, and just specify a adequete maintenance/replacement schedule for critical parts.

TL;DR: if you want to not deal with this again get something stainless or a new cast iron component with appropriate protective coating.
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Old 09-06-2018, 02:47 PM
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Ni-Resist, specifically D5S, is significantly better than regular ductile for corrosion resistance and high temp strength. It is commonly used on exhaust components in gasoline engines. As far as I know, there are no coatings that can survive turbine temperatures. I think the best I've seen was like 200-300 C? Definitely not 900C. Lincoln Industries has a teflon coating that's extremely tough, but it's not capable of those temps.
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Old 09-06-2018, 03:05 PM
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I spoke to ATP this morning. Theyíve never seen anything like it. They run cast housings all the time.

I remember one of the OGís talking about how corrosive leaded fuel is. The byproduct of burning lead is whatís really causing the issues from what I read.

I expected E85 to have more problems but in talking with ATP they said even that fuel does not have such a problem.

Thanks for all the great feedback guys!
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Old 09-06-2018, 08:50 PM
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That is almost unbelievable how bad that looks in those housings. I have never seen anything like that ever, really odd.
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Old 09-06-2018, 09:34 PM
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I instantly remembered "Rusty spoons" cartoon on youtube. Check it out lol. That does look pretty insane.
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Old 09-07-2018, 01:11 AM
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@ Andyfloyd, what’s really stumping me is where did the material come from? I understand how that much stuff can be from the turbine itself.
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Old 09-07-2018, 09:06 AM
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I just discovered what maybe the source of the problem. These are not standard T25 housings. They have the exhaust side cut down (machined) to allow for better downpipe geometry. The exhaust studs now penetrate into the turbine scroll. Now I am not rocket scientist but I have to believe studs/bolts will not survive in that environment. I bet the blow torch effect cleared out much of the stud and pooled in the lower portion of the scroll. I no longer have the turbines. They are off at the machine shop. Iíll run my threoy by him and see what he thinks. Iíll work on better pics too.

This started as a simple R&R turbo repair. Now itís turning into something more. It maybe time to reengineer the turbo mounting. Garrett makes a V-Band turbine that looks to be a clean solution. Inlet and discharge diameters are compatible so this maybe the right way to go.
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