Scary/Smokie oil leak at Boost!
 

Just limped here in to work. Was having some fun coming in to work, into boost hard, when I spotted a big "james Bond" type oil smoke behind me....:vash:
Pulled over, poped the hood, had some oil sprayed over the exhaust manifold, oil over the wastgate can, and some sprayed over the valve cover. Thank God the mobil 1 didn't catch fire? Anyways, looking around, and under the car, doesn't seem to be a big leak. Wiped it off with a cotton shop towel, started the car up, checked the guages, BTW, never lost oil pressure, looked for any oil coming out anywhere, didn't spot any more oil pouring out, no big puddle under the car.......?:confused: I'm thinking when I hit boost, was at maximum oil pressure, 60+ psi, that the line going to the turbo brg. has the leak? Can't look at it till I get home tonight. What do you think, the oil line feeding the turbo, the banjo, block feed, or worse, burn't it on the Turbo Tony DP?
Anyone "been there, done that"?
TIA
Mike

check pcv valve.

is the dipstick seated?

several things...for me when that happened i diagnosed everything and it ended up being a bad turbo seal...this can cause oil to be sucked out of the crankcase from the turbo and burnt up in the exhaust, causing dark smoke, especially at full boost. can also cause the crankcase to be pressurised... which would explain why oil was splooged all over your engine...

if it's leaking from what appears to be the turbo...the vaccumm line connected to in front of the turbo and head could have fed oil in there and it sometiems looks like it sprayed out of the oil feed inlet to the turbo if you get enough in there and slightly behind the compresser.

HUH?
The turbo doesn't suck up oil from anywhere. Oil is fed to the turbo via it's own feed line tapped off the block. Burning oil typically leaves a light-greyish/blue smoke, but not what I would call dark. A blown turbo seal would not cause a crankcase to be pressurized, although it may lead to burning oil if the oil made it into the compressor housing, through the intercooler, and into the combustion chamber. Basically your first paragraph is completely wrong.

Your second paragraph is mostly right, but needs to be explained better. The only vacuum line connected to the "front of the turbo" is the line for the wastegate actuator and does not carry oil. A large amount of oil may get into the intake from the "breather line" on the valve cover due to a pressurized crankcase (ask BRGRacer for clarification), and would make it's way to the exhaust through the compressor/IC piping/engine. Also, oil should never spray out of the oil inlet if you have the fitting tight enough, which there's no reason you wouldn't... and there is no access to the exhaust at that point... but it would make a mess.

Basically there are only 2 places for spraying oil to come from.
1. The valve cover breather line on the intake due to a pressurized crankcase. Fix: 323GTX PCV valve and catch can.
2. Dipstick popped up and sprayed oil everywhere due to pressurized crankcase. Fix: 323GTX PCV valve and piece of wire to hold the dipstick in tighter.

MRacer, are you running a restrictor on your oil inlet? When you pressurize the crankcase, it prevents oil from draining out of the CHRA, but since the oil is still being pressure-fed via the oil inlet, it blows oil past the wheels and into the compressor and turbine. Check your IC piping for oil. If there's no oil, then it definitely got into your turbine where it was burned. That's good, because it saves you from de-oiling your IC. Lowering the flow via a restrictor is usually a good idea even with no blowby problems.

ohhhhhhhhh...it all makes sense nowwwwww.....when it was explained to me i was under a different impression...thank you for correcting me.

so a bad seal in the turbo could lead to oil getting past the seals from the oil inlet and actually making its way all the way to the compresser and get into your intercooler? or technically it could go the other way too correct? make it's way past the turbine in the rear and actually get sucked into your exhaust?

are you 100% sure that a bad/REALLY bad blown turbo seal coudln't lead to a pressurized crankcase....i've been trying to look it up...

no. it couldn't.

the "seals" aren't even really seals. It's all dynamics.


the only way to pressurize the crankcase is from the charge pipes into the breather ports (specifically a bad pcv valve) or bad rings.

if the the turbo is spitting oil into the compressor, it'll get oil into the intercooler, but your crankcase isn't pressurized from it.

well in that case...what is the easiest way to diagnose that you have a bad turbo seal? other then the infamous whine...

odviously they're not seals like a headgasket seal...but if something malfunctions in there... what is the most odvious symptom... don't worry i've read, i'm just curious as to what you guys have to say...

i guess what i was thinking was MAYBE maybe, if somehow the exhaust gas/pressure got past the turbine...could the it put pressure on the oil drain hose... or restrict oil feed? ...

i read that the mazda 323's turbo seals were prone to go out and that one of the signs was a pressurized crankcase....

I'm still here at work, so i really apreaciate all the idea's. But reading your reply's, and thinking back to where the oil was, it was directly under the little breather I have on the valve cover. When I go out to drive home, I'll place my hand under this filter, and see if it's weeping oil (soaked?)? Also check to see if the dip stick is seated? I'll get another GTX pvc too.

Samnavy: I'm not sure what you mean by a inlet oil restrictor? I'm using the stock Greedy oil supply line, with a direct drilled crankcase drain?
The ironic thing is that I had a split wastegate supply hose, and was hitting Big PSI #'s, get that fixed, back down to 8-10 and I spray all over...go figure LOL!
Mike

yikes...man i was having this problem not to long ago and still is not fixed... is there a white gas coming from the head? what could taht be anyone?

Not enough.

Unless you've seen the inside of a turbo and know what all the parts look like, it's not gonna do much good to explain how the oil stays in the CHRA and doesn't leak out past the compressor/turbine wheel. Suffice to say, a good turbo shouldn't leak unless there is too much pressure inside the CHRA and oil is forced past the "seals", which aren't really seals. A turbo primarily goes bad over time as the bearings wear out and the shaft gets some play in it. Once the shaft has play, oil can start to squeeze past the sides of the shaft and into the exhaust/intake stream.

After several reads, I now understand what it is you're talking about regarding pressurizing the crankcase... AND NO. Exhaust gas coming out of the engine and through the turbine housing cannot get around the turbine wheel and enter the CHRA through the same hole the shaft goes through, and then proceed down the drain line and into the crankcase. If compressed air from the compressor wheel can't leak past it's seal, then non-pressurized exhaust gas has no chance.

A white gas coming directly from the head, ie between the head and the block is probably from the radiator. This would be indicitive of a blown head gasket and would be very obvious as you'd need to refill your radiator every other day.

MRACER,
Ah, sorry, forgot what forum I was in. The Greddy turbo is oil cooled and oil lubricated. You DO need a lot of oil flow. In a water cooled turbo, the oil only serves the function of lubing the shaft, and not very much oil is actually required... WELL, far less than an oil cooled turbo. So, forget about the inlet restrictor.

OK, stopped on the way into work and bought a 323 Turbo PVC valve, replaced it right there in the parking lot.
Earlier here's what I found:
Dip Stick was seated.
Found the air breather I have on the driver's side of the valve cover saturated in oil....this is what dripped onto the exhaust manifold causing all the smoke.
Drove gently into work (here now), didn't get into boost. When I opened the hood to put the new PVC in, didn't seem as if there was anything more than residual oil on the filter? HST, I have it wrapped in a shop towel to see if there's any significant oil still blowing through.
Anyway's on the way home tonight, I'm gonna boost and see what happen's?:crx: If it's gonna happen,...it's gonna' happen?! LOL!
Mike

Wait,wait,wait...I've read elsewhere on here and even on my thread that some sort of inline pressure regulator should also be used with the Greddy kit because it could cause premature seal failure (like what happened to me), so which is it?

No, the greddy kit uses a -3AN line as well as banjo bolts that reduce that size of the line. You do not need an oil inlet restrictor on a greddy turbo.

If other circumstances are causing oil past the seals of the turbo (or into the intake and one is assuming it's a bad turbo), doing a rebuild will not help. If you fix those circumstances, the turbo will not spit oil and will not need a rebuild.

so if the greddy kit has a restricter then the only way the oil is getting past is due to turbo seal problems?

how would not rebuilding the turbo help?

the greddy doesnt need a restrictor, it's never had a problem with too much oil pressure like most Garretts do with -4AN lines.

----

now say for example your oil return line was the stock Greddy 5' hose. And lets say you didn't do a great job of maintaining downward travel and there are a few uphill slopes. Well that oil is not pressurized, so it's not going back into the pan, so the oil will start to build up in the line untill it get filled up and backs up into the turbo. at this point since there is oil pressure inside the turbo, the next best place for oil to exit is the compressor and turbine seals on the shaft.

or, your pcv has a small leak and lets boost pressure into the crankcase. Since the oilpan is within the area, so is the oil return line. since there is no pressure inside the oil return line, oil slowly drips back into the pan. if you apply positive pressure inside crankcase it will make it's way up into the oil return line, forcing the oil to backup into the housing...and you know the rest.

or, not typically greddy related. you have too much oil pressure in boost. it cannot drain fast enough. so it exits out of the seals as well as the return line. most likely it will smoke in/out of boost and at idle.

you fix all of these and the turbo shouldn't need a rebuild, if that's the reason it's happening.

^Thanks brian, I just took my turbo off to rebuild it and I'm gonna re-think my oil feed and return line situation when I put it back in. BTW, the blades looks brand new, thats good a thing at least!

What? Did someone say my name?

Ahhh Sh*t!
Just came into work , did the Smoke screen again, poped the hood, oil sprayed all over the engine coming from the breather!:vash: I think I must have hurt the engine on some previous (unintentional) high boost.:eek:
As mentioned here earlier, did I pooche the rings?...or what? Head gasket/valve seals? Surprisingly, the engine still runs strong? Could I buy some time with a Greddy type oil catch can, or do the dirty and just run a hose to the ground? Or am I on borrowed time? Start looking for a new engine....:cry:
TIA
Mike:sadwavey:

honestly, you are probably still making good compression.

I'll bet that it is the valve seals, probably not the headgasket unless there is oil coming out from your where your head and bottom end meet.

TRY NOT RUNNING THAT DAMN FILTER, run it to a line right before the turbo. This better helps the seals seal.

I had this same problem and it ended up not being the rings.
although i am still not sure of if it is my valves or not. I'm in the middle of rebuilding my turbo...peace.

Mike, I think your looking at a head rebuild. It's either the headgasket, bent valve, or leaking valve seals. I'm thinking headgasket because valve seals don't usually leak under positive pressure....just vacuum. You can maybe try and tighten your head nuts in sequence to the maximum torque spec to see if this helps as a quick fix.

Mike, I've seen this a bazillion times. The cheapest and easiest thing you can do is route your cam-cover breather correctly to see if that fixes the problem. $20 says it works, and all your problems go away.

I'm willing to bet that it's blow by. Do a compression test.

Lots of us run a filter off the valve cover with out problems. If you have a healthy engine and the PCV valve is working it shouldn't be an issue. Maybe no friend to the environment but what are you going to do?

did u get the mazda 323 pcv valve?

i think if u run it to the intake it will blow by too...

I dunno...maybe spend the 5 min. with a drill, some JB Weld and a hose barb to route it correctly?

Even if he does have piston ring blow-by, this simple, 5-10 min. fix could prevent it from smoking excessively, or even at all! So why the fuck doesn't he just try it? You think there's a reason every OEM and aftermarket manufacturer routes it this way?

plus i dont even trust those NAPA, autozone, advance PCV valves one bit, i had to go through 3-4 to find that that acutally sealsed under boost, and i suspect it's not doing a good job anymore.....

OK. I hear you guys, have to admit, I like the simplest route too.
But help me with my thinking, hey, I've been wrong before.
1st. Before I was turboed, the chrome tube that was attached to the nipple where I now have my breather was routed into a nipple on my intake manifold, was it not? Also, as I was "na", wasn't there allways "negative" pressure to vacumn/suck any vapor into the engine to be burned up?
2nd. Now that I'm turboed, isn't there positive pressure going into the manifold? Isn't it going to harder to suck/push this air/vapor/oil mist into the manifold?

Sounds as if some of you have drilled a new hole somewhere to route a hose to and from where my current breather is? I'll do that, sounds cheap and easy. Just tell/show me where to route this hose to? Pic's would be great LOL!
TIA
Mike

if the pcv line is failed, then your putting postive pressure into the crankcase...easiest place for that to exit, the breather filter you attached.

but even if the pcv valve is fully sealed in boost, you have no vacuum in boost, so the rings dont seal as well, and it can spit oil there as well if they aren't in the best condition...

the line should go from the breather to the intake....

like so:
https://www.miataturbo.net/braineack/MS/solenoid1.jpg

OK, now were getting somewhere!
If I'm interpeting your pic right, it looks as if you have a line running to the elbow between the air filter and inlet side of the turbo. Great fo you, not so for me. I'm spittin out some serious oil. If I were to run the line like I'm seeing in your pic, I'll gunk up the IC, most likely fill it up with oil after awhile?
Mike:confused:

I have the same setup with an oil catch can between crankcase and the elbow of inlet side of the turbo.

There's no way a line to the intake piping will solve his problem. I checked it out today, and he has a diaper around his filter on the cam cover. It's alot of oil....either way, it will burn in the combustion chamber or on his turbo mani and create alot smoke. A leak down test would be the best thing for him to do to find the problem. A compression test won't tell him much.

had the same problem...still isn't fixed 100%....but when u guys do figure it out let me know because it sounds EXACTLY like my problem... but my turbo seals are bad and need to fix that problem first...

i had to run a rag around my fitler, and everytime after high boost... oil would fly outta there... not cool.

but lets say he does normal driving, how much oil might be be burning or loosing.

if it's not a bad PCV, it's the rings or valve seals....the end.

I have a couple of weeks off in July, most likely will do what Miatanutca is suggesting.....go with a new head gasket and valve seals? I'm in the process of having a greddy type oil catch can made for me here at work. That will be available to me shortly. Till that's done, I'll do the dirty I mentioned earlier.:eek:
Thanks to all who posted.....:bigtu:
Mike

how often does yours fill up?

Just keeps getting better.........:vash:
Poped my dipstick, this time I did have an engine fire......:crx:
Took a couple hours to clean up the engine bay, now have the dipstick wired.
Mike

Dear Mracer,

You Are Pressurizing Your Crankcase. Please Stop.

You Either Have A Boost Source Into The Crankcase (Bad PCV or improperly plumbed setup), Or Your Rings Are Toast And Compression Is Blowing Past Them.

If the first, then it's an easy fix....STOP BOOSTING INTO THE CRANKCASE....If boost goes in it, it has to exit it VIA the dipstick, the breather line and the oil return port.

If the later, then you need a new engine.

I Worry You Are Just Making Things Worse And Going About This The Wrong Way. I Also Worry You and Your Miata Won't Be With Us Too Much Longer.

Love,

Scott.

PS. please by all means disregard this and rebuild your turbo and don't fix the problem, then be pissed that you wasted all that time and money and didn't solve the problem. Then come back here in a few weeks and tell us about how your car is no longer.

Easy big fella.

In my case I'm running a filter directly off the turbo. Routing the PCV back into that would be a trick. Second if I'm getting oil coming out I'd rather have it accumulate in a filter I can easily check than be injested by my turbo and I/C. Oil does very little for knock prevention.

I think you are making a big deal over the PCV "issue", routing the PCV into the intake pre-turbo is not a miracle cure. I'd suggest that he properly try to diagnose the problem he is having before using the shotgun approach.

I'm willing to bet that his rings are toast, I've seen this exact problem before. No amount of PCV voodoo will fix that.

the ones who don't make a big deal about the pcv & breather lines, are usually the ones posting about smoking issues and "blown" turbos...

The PCV valve IS A big deal. If that's working, and your rings aren't shot using a filter on the other side shouldn't be a problem. I'd put more importance on having a working good PCV valve and proper size drain that is routed properly on the turbo.

But hey, I've got a working PCV and my rings are fine.

It's not the "shotgun approach," it's the "build-a-turbo-setup-correctly-the-first-time" approach.

WoW!
Just trying to buy a bit of time (I hope).......:)
I've got properly drained oil line & correctly routed pvc. Haven't had a problem till now....somethings changed? (for the worse) I'll be doing a leak down test shortly, hope this will pinpoint the problem. I'm not sure if I'd want to spend a lot of money on parts on this engine when you can sometimes source a used engine for lil' money.
Peace
Mike
http://www.cardomain.com/ride/179116

easiest thing to do right now is just plain test the new PCV...

While the PCV routing pre-turbo may be correct, it isn't the solution to this problem. The only thing being accomplished by the pre-turbo routing would be to dump a pile of oil into the intake. Wonder how the turbo would enjoy sucking in fluid at the rate it sounds like this guy is losing it?

How do you know? He hasn't had the leak-down test, and he currently doesn't have his PCV breather routed correctly.

That's really all we know at this point.

You are right, I don't know for sure. However ....

The amount of oil described here would indicate a pretty serious problem.

And I assume he has now routed it correctly and still having the problem.

I would conclude it is something other than the PCV routing.

UPDATE:

Well, got a day off to take the head off. Before I did that, compression test showed 120/92/95/150. Head came off the block with no problem once the bolts were out it just slid off? Expected it to be stuck somewhat? Gasket looked to be in good shape, valves looked good?
Well, here's the bad part, the back piston (firewall) edge had eroded (melted).
Also found oil in the intake side of the turbo, now i'm wondering if the oil seal let go on that as well?
Mike

no, because your were letting compression past the rings, and that positve pressure was blowing oil into intake VIA the breather port.

examine the intake more closely you'll see that was the source of the oil, not the turbo.

Remember I posted that I had a breather on where the hose would have previously vented into the intake? There was no hose plumbed into the intake, vented to atmoshere.......? This is why I'm concerned that I spotted the oil on the filter end of the compressor?
TIA
Mike

positve pressure in the crankcase means postive pressure in the oil return line....could be backing things up...do one thing at a time.

+1 if there is no venting whatsoever sometimes drainage will blow past to sealing oring on the compressor listen to Scot and the others this is not there first time seeing this problem.

For the life of me I couldn't understand how oil could have gotten in the intake, as I mentioned I didn't have a vent tube routed into the intake. HST, I never thought about the case pressure blowing back into the oil return line? That would make sense?
TIA
Mike

So ya, rings?

I'm sure you can source an engine for cheap, but nows your chance to get forged stuff...hehe. I've seen 1.6's sell for under $300. If you need tips on shipping large stuff, give me a call, unless your able to source one from Canada. Burnt piston!? You must of been knocking bad.

lol... what u gotta do is... weld a bung or something onto your exhuast and then run a line to that bung off the head filter where u hada your filter on... that was it creates vaccumm from the exhaust ...and oil that gets blown by just gets burnt off in your exhaust instead of lowering the octane of your gas and creating harmful knock...

just kidding...but damn i would do it. lol lol

people do that all the time...

wow..if you're serious... that's just crazy... i never would have known....

cant use a bung, must be a slash cut rod and the angle against the flow of exhaust

http://civic-eg.com/pics/diagrams/slash.jpg

OKay, quick update.....
Got the pistons out, of course, for all the well known reason of making our engine RWD, #4 piston looked the worse. All 4 pistons have broken top lands. #4 bore had some slight scuffing, the other 3 looked pristeen. Brgs. looked good. Gonna look into getting some low compression Wiseco's.
Mike:)

cool...I'd go for belfab, they have GREAT deals on pistons and rods.

haha take a look at my piston ;-)