Turbo for MILD track days
 

I figured I would ask this in a seperate thread. Yes I did search!

How do the studs/nuts hold on for milder track days? Not the hardcore racing that seems to be the topic for the EPIC thread. Damn that thread is long, I have been reading on it for my last three lunch breaks and only made it to page 21!

I am currently rebuilding a 1.8 to go in my 91. Doing all I can to be prepared for an eventual Shanghai kit. I want to set up the MS for NA first and get it to run right and then do FI.

My main concern is that I want a dependible track car and all this talk is making me wonder if I need to turbo it or just work more on the NA alternative. I am not looking for monster power more around 180-200 whp which should give me a hp/weight ratio that compares to my dad's VW GLI. I have driven his car on track several times now, it doesnt handle as well as the miata but man it has some pull out of the turns. So basically I just want some more oomph, not a rocket that blows up and needs thousands of dollars worth of brake mods so you can stop the damn car at the end of the straight. The Jetta never had any probelms with turbo hardware and thats even whith me and my dad doing back to back track sessions when my car had problems. Granted we arn't professionals pushing to the edge.

I hate to be wrenching half the weekend long when I am taking sttending a track day. What are the experiences of the people that track their cars but don't nessasarily "race" them?

Might I suggest that someone summarizes the EPIC thread and begin a new one. There is alot of good info in there that would be useful for most people, but pages of ass reaming and other crap makes it unbearably long to read.

I would say i fall more into this category than the epic thread. I don't "race" my car yet, but do plan to get into the miata challenges soon.

I had 230whp with a gt 2560 and didn't have any stud problems till my second or third track day with the turbo. Then stage 8s cured it for almost an entire day, at this point in time they would be backing off each session.

If you don't want to be wrenching all weekend then you might want to contact either begi for a v-band setup or Tim @ absurd flow. Granted it is pretty expensive, but how much is your time worth? Being able to drive an entire day outweighs me loosing a session for something getting fuckzored.

Doing the MS first is a good idea, then injectors, then turbo.

Ask hustler if the extra power that comes with a turbo is worth it fr a track car. Id say no, and last I heard he'd agree. It's awesome fun, but there's a huge gap between a street budget and a race budget. Definitely fine tune your MS, brakes, suspension, tires, and driving skills before turboing a track car. Once the turbo goes on, you will have no time to work on anything but turbo/cooling issues. I guess my main point is you'll have more fun if you spend your turbo money on N/A track days.

you're an idiot at this point to put a turbo car on the track with studs and expect it to work. There is a solution, and its v-bands. There are many theories on ways to fix this, but no one can seem to do it. Its a $2000 mistake that I won't ever make again.

Considering that you've been on a track before, you should know that racecar dependability and affordability are further apart than conceptualized extra-universal red-shift, and increasing at an infinite rate. Stay NA if you don't have the money to address every system in the car. If I had to do it all over again, I'd have a 300whp daily driver miata, and a gutted, caged, 2500rpm idling/cammed/$5k suspension NA racecar. My turbo car is too nice to treat like a filthy whore.

Edit: I think I had a lot more fun at the track in my car with 94whp because every corner was a fight, I couldn't really hurt the car, and it was really challenging to run mid-pack at the Subaru events. I haven't done a mixed track day yet, but in a 300whp car you suddenly become the target, you're watched and criticized, and there are no more excuses. Sometimes I wish I could go back 2-years ago when I worked and drove my car at the track in Oklahoma for 60-hours of seat time in just a few months. Now, its a multi-national event to get the car on the track where I find myself working on the car at 3AM so I can sleep between sessions all day and tell myself "this is what you spent $20k for; its fun, and you like it!!!" Look at where I am right now. I get my turbo kit 9-days before my favorite track event of the year and I have to get it installed, pay someone to do fab work, fix the oil cooler, make brake ducts for the bumper that will be temporary because my new bumper isn't ready yet, order spare pads, get the car on the dyno with the new parts, and hope and pray that I make it home. 2-years ago all I had to do was put a key in the car and drive it to the track, then drive it home.

I agree with that. I knew I wanted to get into tracking my car, so I made sure I did it right the first time. Staying N/A would not be a bad thing to do. It allows you to truely learn the car and drive it balls out all the time.

If you can do it all at once, then great. If you can't, don't rush it. It may take years but get it exactly where you want it to end up the first go around. Otherwise you will kick yourself for taking steps to get there and costing yourself more money.

Upgrade suspension first, then ECU, then stiffening and all the other little stuff, and then turbo it. Use quality parts that are designed for your intended use and you will thank yourself later.

Thats what I was fearing. I love turbo's though!!!

So even at lower boost levels the same problems stick their ugly heads out?

I might look at superchargers but I don't like the idea of waisting all that power to spin the damn thing when you can just use some energy from the waisted exhaust heat instead.

I just can't help but wonder how the OEM turbo's stay together then. I know the 1.8t Jettas I have worked on don't have any special turbo hardware.

As hustler said, dependibility and power exponentially relates to price when pushing things to the limit.

Maybe I will be happy with the increase from the built 1.8 over the 1.6, but I doubt that.

You would be surpised how great they feel N/A on a track. They are blidingly fast in the turns. Try to go to a local track on a HPDE day and see if you can ride with an instructor there if they have spec miatas. Usually there are a few instructors that do.

I have done a few track days 3 of them in my 91. I am very confident and comfortable in the car and am looking for a slight increase in power. I did my first track day in a Factory Five, Shelby Cobra replica, which was a huge misteak. Thats alot of car to control your first time on track. I realize fully how adding alot of power complicates the whole picture.

My car is already set up for track days with good brakes, springs, shocks, sways, Falken Azinis, roll bar, harness and all that type of stuff. It handles like a dream. I just hate smoking other cars in the twisties and then not being able to pass them on the straights and then being stuck behind the same car in the next turn.

My last instructor at CMP had a Spec Miata and I had to admit that it had alot more oomph than my 1.6 but I hope that after my current work on the 1.8 I will be at those same levels.

I might just start looking into the increased cost of the Vbands and see if I am willing to go that way or just stay NA. I love the V'bands. We almost put a twin turbo vband on my brothers cobra, we bought all the parts but kinda decided the 450 hp out o the 347 stroker was enough and a 700 hp turbo in a 1800 lb car would probably just scare the living crap out of us and not be fun to drive.

I loved that stuff.

The reason you haven't made oem studs fail yet is because you don't drive like a man...but you may eventually. They are also one-piece manifold/turbine housings in that generation.

I already miss playing with Johnwag on the track in his 123whp car that with 225 nt-01's, flex, lots of stiffening, lots of lightness, and even more skill was more fun for one session than my turbo car was. I have a lot of work to do.

Turbo miatas go from a fun little bastard on the track to running serious, mid-pack, racecar lap times.

[QUOTE=hustler;448751]I loved that stuff.

The reason you haven't made oem studs fail yet is because you don't drive like a man...but you may eventually. They are also one-piece manifold/turbine housings in that generation.
QUOTE]

The MKIV Jetta 1.8T has a seperate manifold and turbine. One diff I could say is that the factory turbo is tiny and only held on to the manifold with 3 bolts.

Lets just say I have seen one after a 5 min wide open run climing hills at speed. I don't know how you could get them much hotter than a yellow glow. I don't think the biggest "man" can get more than 5 min without lifting on track. Maybe on the Neurinburgh Ring?

The biggest difference would be a FWD and that the turbo hangs underneath the manifold and not off of the end of it.

When the studs fail is it usually the upper studs/nuts that fail first or lower ones?

I might just go ahead and post in the EPIC thread but since I don't track a turbo car as of now I guess it is useless to try.

I had this problem on my turbo Corrado too. You're not driving like a man, plain and simple. If you ever get on the track, V-bands are a must from the start.

I'll rebut those frustrated and hating on turbo systems at the moment.

I've been turbo for 16 months and 24,000 miles. Maybe 10 track days on it now. Has it been flawless and completely reliable? No. Was the increased fun factor worth it? Absolutely.

Primary complaints:

Cooling: I had heating issues, did the big radiator, did the rear coolant reroute, both helped but didn't eliminate the problem. Sealed around the radiator and cooling issues are history. Closing the heat exchangers so air entering the mouth can't bypass them is a must do and does not have to be a huge or expensive project.

Nuts/ studs: This is likely my biggest headache. Yes stuff works loose. Haven't had any problem at the head but the turbo inlet and outlet are both trouble spots. It's likely cost me 6-8 hours over the last year. It's a headache but I just get in the habit of pulling the heat shields and tightening the inlet and outlet bolts before and after a track day. This is running 12-13psi and around 250hp. With your more moderate goals it isn't likely to be as big a problem.

Extraneous upgrades: No one mentioned this but a car that works great at 95hp will have all sorts of other deficiencies at 200. Brakes and suspension are the biggies. I did the m-tuned corrado front and brakes are pretty good now on my 94. I'd still like more though. A suspension that seemed OK NA will be too floppy turbo. Plan on a substantial upgrade there too.

If you really build a 200hp car and lighten it for the track it will be a whole lotta fun. Seal the rad, use whatever high end bolts/studs/nuts solution is being suggested in the nuts/studs thread and have fun. If you have problems you'll be frustrated but if you plan ahead they should be minimal.

The best thing you have going for you is you aren't going in blind. It won't be as frustrating since you know of potential headaches going in. A year or two ago everyone thought you could go FM or BEGI turbo and you'll have few if any problems. At 8-10psi that may have been true. Now people are asking more of the systems, running harder and more frequently at the track and the shortcomings are starting to surface.

Maybe a Krafwerks supercharger might suit you. Increased HP without the reliability and nuts loosening issues. At least thats what Emilio is claiming...

Don't let Hustler's continuing failures dishearten you.

I only have 1 area with flaws and that turbo hardware. Well, oil temps are a little high, but that's it.

I am doing a coolant reroute as part of the 1.8 swap. I was also planning on getting an upgraded radiator. Since I am taking my time I was planning on making aluminum underbelly pans, radiator cover and a air scooper similar to the BEGI one. If you are going to do it you might as well do it right.
I am willing to do whatever is reasonable to make a dependible setup, especially since I have time to think everything through now. Instead of rigging up bandaids later. I have been doing some research on v-bands now, but I don't see enough miata experience and there arn't too many cheap v-band turbos around. Might look into BEGI vband setup once they get it ready.

I know heat output is proportional to power output. Thats why I am aiming at starting small and see how it works. From the basics that I have seen of superchargers it seems that a decent kit gets you roughly 170 whp which seems a fairly conservative turbo number. So why go super, sure you wont have super high temp turbo manifolds to deal with, but what about when you want more boost for the street. I was planning to run a conservative map on the MS(with electronic boost control function) for track use and a more aggressive map for street use. I am sure it will be so hard to dail down the boost when you go to the track though.

I was also wondering if the guys running water/meth injection see lower manifold temps and less hardware problems due to lower EGT.

If I could count on the hardware holding together at least one day I don't have a problem doing torque checks at the end of each day's driving, I just don't want to have to check all the hardware after every session. Thats a little unpractical to me.

What constitutes driving like a man then? Hitting about 110 on the back straight at CMP and then 4 turns later hit another long straight? Do this for two 30 min track sessions back to back, for a total of 4 hrs a day for 2 days. And then several 5min+ full throttle runs up hills with no lifting (different occasion). I don't care how "well" you drive, how much more can you heat up a turbo system than repeated continuous full throttle runs?

I wouldn't rule out a SC. It seems you're trying to talk yourself out of it. As much as everyone loves MS I'd rather avoid it. The most popular SC setups on the market use the so-called "bandaids" but they work and are very reliable.

The more HP bug can bite hard but it can be resisted. You also sound funny saying your "more aggressive" map will be for the street. You can only drive so fast on the street before you lose your license.

Trust me I know about having alot of power avaliable. I am actually glad that I am not babysitting my brothers Cobra over the winters. I would be in jail otherwise, im sure.
One thing though. You dont have to go to 140 to enjoy horsepower. I personally enjoy going 0-60 in as little time as possible. I think someone that races at 100mph or more is a dumbass. Doesn't mean I wont run someone up to 60 from a light. Yes the ricer will probably think he beat me when I lift at sixty and he flies past going 2x the speedlimit but I know my car and enjoy how it performs and don't have anything to prove. I would just love to do it in a little girly miata.
The first time we dynoed the cobra we only got 220 whp and even back them the car did low 4 second 0-60's. Since the miata is only slightly heavier I would love to get close to the same power and fun.
Bottom line is I would like some more power, and if possible the option to upgrade later when the "more power" bug hits me.

my first instructor scarred me shitless on his pretty much stock '94 m-edition with ebay suspension. its more about driving skills then car. once you feel that your car is not enough for you and you are fighting it to lower your lap times by extra 0.02 sec, then you know that you are ready for more power.

i go over 100mph on track all the time

Well a turbo miata quickly gets interesting. At 300whp you can smoke the tires as you roll over blown cobras...not that I've done this or anything of course. lol

Hey hustler... my stuff hasn't loosened up yet :p

Laptimes compared to SM?

By racing I implied street racing. Hell on track you go as fast as you have balls to push the car.

Wow, wish I would have read this before I just bought my turbo and built my motor. I have what is basically a spec Miata that I am boosting, but I hate the idea of not being able to be reliable. My buddy came over and saw my project and just said....you could have done an LS1 and had a reliable motor, tranny, and rear end that were all built from the factory to handle 400 hp. Interesting thought.

by racing I meant "interspecies escapade."

Few seconds (3-4 depending on laptimes you find) faster on Gingerman Raceway (1.8mile shorty). Find me Autobahn times for South course and I can compare there also (running 1:40s and faster).

First of all, a 180-200whp Miata isnt a slight increase. Its pretty serious already. But all things aside, the basic rule is:

Modifying a car leads to more tool time.

That aside, you could do a 5-6psi intercooled turbo setup to work up your skills and have less (not none) heating issues. Studs are always an issue, however - my welded 304 magic stainless studs a still on and zero leaks.

OEM doesnt fail (as quickly) as they spend huge amounts of $$$ on engineering, where BEGi and FM don't spend as much.

Quoted for truth!

How high and where is your cooler and how many rows?

Dont bother with the scoop, it will fall off. Do not skip sealing the sides - hardest part/most benefit. Top and bottom are easy.

So don't, just make one package work and optimize that.

Laptimes tell the story. Look at the spec miata track record and if you run under them you're not slow, near 92%-93% of those times you're fast for 210-230whp.

In a turbo car? Watch your IAT and traffic a head. flatout in 5th and I will be in the rev limiter within half a minute.

I installed my setup last week and spoke with Corky about some of these issues. He had some great information in regard to the bolts stretching when comparing cheaper bolts to true grade 8 bolts. Needless to say that I used grade 8 for the manifold to turbo bolts and turbine to downpipe bolts. I will keep an eye on the head to manifold bolts and will eventually upgrade those as well. If you upgrade to grade 8 you will have minimal issues. When metal gets hot it stretches, grade 8 and higher steel is made at a hotter temperature so it stretches less under the heating and cooling cycles it sees in a turbo environment.

What it comes down to is doing it right the first time, because I personally hate busting my knuckles as little as possible.

Another thing to add is that water cooling the turbo in addition to just oil cooling/lubricating will increase oil change intervals by 1500-2000 miles, as per Corky's advice. I had no idea the difference was so significant.

Corky is a great man and knows alot of stuff but hasn't found a track proven solution for the stud issue. So I won't buy the grade-8-will-fix-it.

I agree with doing it right to begin with instead of dailing it back. My question still comes back to if a milder setup avoids the hardware problem. I guess 200whp is not mild since it is pretty much double the factory output. But lets say a real basic 5-6psi 150-160whp setup. Seems like even at those levels people are having problems.

But then again at those levels I might as well get a supercharger, which I don't like.

Tial Turbine housing V band GT28R GT28R GT28RS .64 A/R:eBay Motors (item 380115875210 end time Nov-02-09 13:52:57 PST)
theres the solution for all loosening turbo fasteners. looks better flows better and is easier to work with.

Wow! That looks like an awesome idea! It's a shame it doesn't fit the GT2554 or 2560.

Thanks for logging in today newb.

EDIT: $400 for that thing?!?!?! wow. I'm glad for my customers that I'm a TiAL dealer.

That exact same housing is available for $35 less from ATP Turbo (a reputable vendor based in the US) and I imagine they don't charge $40 for postage either. (They also sell the mating flanges & clamps for less than this guy, and won't jack you for an addition $20 ea. shipping & fondling.)

In fact, I'm pretty sure that they stole that image from the ATP website.

I'm sure Tim can probably still get a better deal, but it amazes me when folks try to sell stuff like that on eBay for more than retail price.

Here's the complete list of V-band housings from ATP: http://www.atpturbo.com/mm5/merchant...egory_Code=TTH

I must retract my previous statement. I went to the first non-miata track day in this car and without a doubt, the turbo car is a giant killer and worth every cent. This car was insanely fast, all day, and reliable thanks to Tim. I ran with American Iron cars most of the day, rather than wasting my time with streetcar bullshit posers. Oh, then I threw all my shit in the trunk and drove home. That's "where its at." When you can run with American Iron/CMC, and outrun the damn racecars, then drive it home and listen to the radio...that's something special.

yea i know im a newb lol im trying to become more involved.
i wasnt posting the link as a price reference it was just the only place i knew i could find the link in a hurry.
has anyone tried these? http://www.impulseturbo.com/images/fasteners.jpg
they work great for keeping header bolts tight on the mustangs and they say they work good for header to manifold applications.

There is a thread to discuss turbo fasteners. You can read for pages and pages about a bunch of shit that doesn't work. Or, you can go with V-bands like i did. The great part about my hot-parts is that I can shit-stomp vettes, porsches, AMGs, blown z's, and CMC racecars for the entire track day which is like 120-minutes of seat time, and never get the tools out.

See, maybe you'll never have the problem, maybe someone will find a fix; I'll definitely drive all day and never take the tools out. lol

hustler are u running a tial 44mm or the new v band 38? cant tell form the photo.

He's running the TiAL MV-S EWG. He likes v-bands.

ahh i have also been looking at that waste gate as a potential for my setup but was told that people are having issues with it spiking. the 44 is also v band but its not low profile like the new 38.