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Old 08-31-2009, 01:16 PM   #1
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Default Turbo for MILD track days

I figured I would ask this in a seperate thread. Yes I did search!

How do the studs/nuts hold on for milder track days? Not the hardcore racing that seems to be the topic for the EPIC thread. Damn that thread is long, I have been reading on it for my last three lunch breaks and only made it to page 21!

I am currently rebuilding a 1.8 to go in my 91. Doing all I can to be prepared for an eventual Shanghai kit. I want to set up the MS for NA first and get it to run right and then do FI.

My main concern is that I want a dependible track car and all this talk is making me wonder if I need to turbo it or just work more on the NA alternative. I am not looking for monster power more around 180-200 whp which should give me a hp/weight ratio that compares to my dad's VW GLI. I have driven his car on track several times now, it doesnt handle as well as the miata but man it has some pull out of the turns. So basically I just want some more oomph, not a rocket that blows up and needs thousands of dollars worth of brake mods so you can stop the damn car at the end of the straight. The Jetta never had any probelms with turbo hardware and thats even whith me and my dad doing back to back track sessions when my car had problems. Granted we arn't professionals pushing to the edge.

I hate to be wrenching half the weekend long when I am taking sttending a track day. What are the experiences of the people that track their cars but don't nessasarily "race" them?

Might I suggest that someone summarizes the EPIC thread and begin a new one. There is alot of good info in there that would be useful for most people, but pages of *** reaming and other crap makes it unbearably long to read.
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Old 08-31-2009, 01:23 PM   #2
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I would say i fall more into this category than the epic thread. I don't "race" my car yet, but do plan to get into the miata challenges soon.

I had 230whp with a gt 2560 and didn't have any stud problems till my second or third track day with the turbo. Then stage 8s cured it for almost an entire day, at this point in time they would be backing off each session.

If you don't want to be wrenching all weekend then you might want to contact either begi for a v-band setup or Tim @ absurd flow. Granted it is pretty expensive, but how much is your time worth? Being able to drive an entire day outweighs me loosing a session for something getting fuckzored.

Doing the MS first is a good idea, then injectors, then turbo.
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Old 08-31-2009, 01:28 PM   #3
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Ask hustler if the extra power that comes with a turbo is worth it fr a track car. Id say no, and last I heard he'd agree. It's awesome fun, but there's a huge gap between a street budget and a race budget. Definitely fine tune your MS, brakes, suspension, tires, and driving skills before turboing a track car. Once the turbo goes on, you will have no time to work on anything but turbo/cooling issues. I guess my main point is you'll have more fun if you spend your turbo money on N/A track days.
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Old 08-31-2009, 01:29 PM   #4
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you're an idiot at this point to put a turbo car on the track with studs and expect it to work. There is a solution, and its v-bands. There are many theories on ways to fix this, but no one can seem to do it. Its a $2000 mistake that I won't ever make again.

Considering that you've been on a track before, you should know that racecar dependability and affordability are further apart than conceptualized extra-universal red-shift, and increasing at an infinite rate. Stay NA if you don't have the money to address every system in the car. If I had to do it all over again, I'd have a 300whp daily driver miata, and a gutted, caged, 2500rpm idling/cammed/$5k suspension NA racecar. My turbo car is too nice to treat like a filthy *****.

Edit: I think I had a lot more fun at the track in my car with 94whp because every corner was a fight, I couldn't really hurt the car, and it was really challenging to run mid-pack at the Subaru events. I haven't done a mixed track day yet, but in a 300whp car you suddenly become the target, you're watched and criticized, and there are no more excuses. Sometimes I wish I could go back 2-years ago when I worked and drove my car at the track in Oklahoma for 60-hours of seat time in just a few months. Now, its a multi-national event to get the car on the track where I find myself working on the car at 3AM so I can sleep between sessions all day and tell myself "this is what you spent $20k for; its fun, and you like it!!!" Look at where I am right now. I get my turbo kit 9-days before my favorite track event of the year and I have to get it installed, pay someone to do fab work, fix the oil cooler, make brake ducts for the bumper that will be temporary because my new bumper isn't ready yet, order spare pads, get the car on the dyno with the new parts, and hope and pray that I make it home. 2-years ago all I had to do was put a key in the car and drive it to the track, then drive it home.

Last edited by hustler; 08-31-2009 at 01:42 PM.
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Old 08-31-2009, 01:39 PM   #5
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I agree with that. I knew I wanted to get into tracking my car, so I made sure I did it right the first time. Staying N/A would not be a bad thing to do. It allows you to truely learn the car and drive it ***** out all the time.

If you can do it all at once, then great. If you can't, don't rush it. It may take years but get it exactly where you want it to end up the first go around. Otherwise you will kick yourself for taking steps to get there and costing yourself more money.

Upgrade suspension first, then ECU, then stiffening and all the other little stuff, and then turbo it. Use quality parts that are designed for your intended use and you will thank yourself later.
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Old 08-31-2009, 01:39 PM   #6
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Thats what I was fearing. I love turbo's though!!!

So even at lower boost levels the same problems stick their ugly heads out?

I might look at superchargers but I don't like the idea of waisting all that power to spin the damn thing when you can just use some energy from the waisted exhaust heat instead.

I just can't help but wonder how the OEM turbo's stay together then. I know the 1.8t Jettas I have worked on don't have any special turbo hardware.

As hustler said, dependibility and power exponentially relates to price when pushing things to the limit.

Maybe I will be happy with the increase from the built 1.8 over the 1.6, but I doubt that.
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Old 08-31-2009, 01:45 PM   #7
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You would be surpised how great they feel N/A on a track. They are blidingly fast in the turns. Try to go to a local track on a HPDE day and see if you can ride with an instructor there if they have spec miatas. Usually there are a few instructors that do.
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Old 08-31-2009, 02:03 PM   #8
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I have done a few track days 3 of them in my 91. I am very confident and comfortable in the car and am looking for a slight increase in power. I did my first track day in a Factory Five, Shelby Cobra replica, which was a huge misteak. Thats alot of car to control your first time on track. I realize fully how adding alot of power complicates the whole picture.

My car is already set up for track days with good brakes, springs, shocks, sways, Falken Azinis, roll bar, harness and all that type of stuff. It handles like a dream. I just hate smoking other cars in the twisties and then not being able to pass them on the straights and then being stuck behind the same car in the next turn.

My last instructor at CMP had a Spec Miata and I had to admit that it had alot more oomph than my 1.6 but I hope that after my current work on the 1.8 I will be at those same levels.

I might just start looking into the increased cost of the Vbands and see if I am willing to go that way or just stay NA. I love the V'bands. We almost put a twin turbo vband on my brothers cobra, we bought all the parts but kinda decided the 450 hp out o the 347 stroker was enough and a 700 hp turbo in a 1800 lb car would probably just scare the living crap out of us and not be fun to drive.
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Old 08-31-2009, 02:19 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by relte View Post
I just hate smoking other cars in the twisties and then not being able to pass them on the straights and then being stuck behind the same car in the next turn.
I loved that stuff.

The reason you haven't made oem studs fail yet is because you don't drive like a man...but you may eventually. They are also one-piece manifold/turbine housings in that generation.

I already miss playing with Johnwag on the track in his 123whp car that with 225 nt-01's, flex, lots of stiffening, lots of lightness, and even more skill was more fun for one session than my turbo car was. I have a lot of work to do.

Turbo miatas go from a fun little bastard on the track to running serious, mid-pack, racecar lap times.
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Old 08-31-2009, 04:13 PM   #10
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[QUOTE=hustler;448751]I loved that stuff.

The reason you haven't made oem studs fail yet is because you don't drive like a man...but you may eventually. They are also one-piece manifold/turbine housings in that generation.
QUOTE]

The MKIV Jetta 1.8T has a seperate manifold and turbine. One diff I could say is that the factory turbo is tiny and only held on to the manifold with 3 bolts.

Lets just say I have seen one after a 5 min wide open run climing hills at speed. I don't know how you could get them much hotter than a yellow glow. I don't think the biggest "man" can get more than 5 min without lifting on track. Maybe on the Neurinburgh Ring?

The biggest difference would be a FWD and that the turbo hangs underneath the manifold and not off of the end of it.

When the studs fail is it usually the upper studs/nuts that fail first or lower ones?

I might just go ahead and post in the EPIC thread but since I don't track a turbo car as of now I guess it is useless to try.
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Old 08-31-2009, 05:47 PM   #11
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I had this problem on my turbo Corrado too. You're not driving like a man, plain and simple. If you ever get on the track, V-bands are a must from the start.
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Old 08-31-2009, 05:48 PM   #12
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I'll rebut those frustrated and hating on turbo systems at the moment.

I've been turbo for 16 months and 24,000 miles. Maybe 10 track days on it now. Has it been flawless and completely reliable? No. Was the increased fun factor worth it? Absolutely.

Primary complaints:

Cooling: I had heating issues, did the big radiator, did the rear coolant reroute, both helped but didn't eliminate the problem. Sealed around the radiator and cooling issues are history. Closing the heat exchangers so air entering the mouth can't bypass them is a must do and does not have to be a huge or expensive project.

Nuts/ studs: This is likely my biggest headache. Yes stuff works loose. Haven't had any problem at the head but the turbo inlet and outlet are both trouble spots. It's likely cost me 6-8 hours over the last year. It's a headache but I just get in the habit of pulling the heat shields and tightening the inlet and outlet bolts before and after a track day. This is running 12-13psi and around 250hp. With your more moderate goals it isn't likely to be as big a problem.

Extraneous upgrades: No one mentioned this but a car that works great at 95hp will have all sorts of other deficiencies at 200. Brakes and suspension are the biggies. I did the m-tuned corrado front and brakes are pretty good now on my 94. I'd still like more though. A suspension that seemed OK NA will be too floppy turbo. Plan on a substantial upgrade there too.

If you really build a 200hp car and lighten it for the track it will be a whole lotta fun. Seal the rad, use whatever high end bolts/studs/nuts solution is being suggested in the nuts/studs thread and have fun. If you have problems you'll be frustrated but if you plan ahead they should be minimal.

The best thing you have going for you is you aren't going in blind. It won't be as frustrating since you know of potential headaches going in. A year or two ago everyone thought you could go FM or BEGI turbo and you'll have few if any problems. At 8-10psi that may have been true. Now people are asking more of the systems, running harder and more frequently at the track and the shortcomings are starting to surface.
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Old 08-31-2009, 06:44 PM   #13
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Maybe a Krafwerks supercharger might suit you. Increased HP without the reliability and nuts loosening issues. At least thats what Emilio is claiming...

Don't let Hustler's continuing failures dishearten you.
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Old 08-31-2009, 06:52 PM   #14
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Quote:
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Maybe a Krafwerks supercharger might suit you. Increased HP without the reliability and nuts loosening issues. At least thats what Emilio is claiming...

Don't let Hustler's continuing failures dishearten you.
I only have 1 area with flaws and that turbo hardware. Well, oil temps are a little high, but that's it.
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Old 08-31-2009, 07:52 PM   #15
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I am doing a coolant reroute as part of the 1.8 swap. I was also planning on getting an upgraded radiator. Since I am taking my time I was planning on making aluminum underbelly pans, radiator cover and a air scooper similar to the BEGI one. If you are going to do it you might as well do it right.
I am willing to do whatever is reasonable to make a dependible setup, especially since I have time to think everything through now. Instead of rigging up bandaids later. I have been doing some research on v-bands now, but I don't see enough miata experience and there arn't too many cheap v-band turbos around. Might look into BEGI vband setup once they get it ready.

I know heat output is proportional to power output. Thats why I am aiming at starting small and see how it works. From the basics that I have seen of superchargers it seems that a decent kit gets you roughly 170 whp which seems a fairly conservative turbo number. So why go super, sure you wont have super high temp turbo manifolds to deal with, but what about when you want more boost for the street. I was planning to run a conservative map on the MS(with electronic boost control function) for track use and a more aggressive map for street use. I am sure it will be so hard to dail down the boost when you go to the track though.

I was also wondering if the guys running water/meth injection see lower manifold temps and less hardware problems due to lower EGT.

If I could count on the hardware holding together at least one day I don't have a problem doing torque checks at the end of each day's driving, I just don't want to have to check all the hardware after every session. Thats a little unpractical to me.

What constitutes driving like a man then? Hitting about 110 on the back straight at CMP and then 4 turns later hit another long straight? Do this for two 30 min track sessions back to back, for a total of 4 hrs a day for 2 days. And then several 5min+ full throttle runs up hills with no lifting (different occasion). I don't care how "well" you drive, how much more can you heat up a turbo system than repeated continuous full throttle runs?
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Old 08-31-2009, 09:03 PM   #16
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I wouldn't rule out a SC. It seems you're trying to talk yourself out of it. As much as everyone loves MS I'd rather avoid it. The most popular SC setups on the market use the so-called "bandaids" but they work and are very reliable.

The more HP bug can bite hard but it can be resisted. You also sound funny saying your "more aggressive" map will be for the street. You can only drive so fast on the street before you lose your license.
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Old 08-31-2009, 09:14 PM   #17
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Trust me I know about having alot of power avaliable. I am actually glad that I am not babysitting my brothers Cobra over the winters. I would be in jail otherwise, im sure.
One thing though. You dont have to go to 140 to enjoy horsepower. I personally enjoy going 0-60 in as little time as possible. I think someone that races at 100mph or more is a dumbass. Doesn't mean I wont run someone up to 60 from a light. Yes the ricer will probably think he beat me when I lift at sixty and he flies past going 2x the speedlimit but I know my car and enjoy how it performs and don't have anything to prove. I would just love to do it in a little girly miata.
The first time we dynoed the cobra we only got 220 whp and even back them the car did low 4 second 0-60's. Since the miata is only slightly heavier I would love to get close to the same power and fun.
Bottom line is I would like some more power, and if possible the option to upgrade later when the "more power" bug hits me.
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Old 08-31-2009, 09:29 PM   #18
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my first instructor scarred me shitless on his pretty much stock '94 m-edition with ebay suspension. its more about driving skills then car. once you feel that your car is not enough for you and you are fighting it to lower your lap times by extra 0.02 sec, then you know that you are ready for more power.
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Old 08-31-2009, 09:31 PM   #19
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Quote:
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I think someone that races at 100mph or more is a dumbass.
i go over 100mph on track all the time
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Old 08-31-2009, 09:32 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by relte View Post
Trust me I know about having alot of power avaliable. I am actually glad that I am not babysitting my brothers Cobra over the winters. I would be in jail otherwise, im sure.
One thing though. You dont have to go to 140 to enjoy horsepower. I personally enjoy going 0-60 in as little time as possible. I think someone that races at 100mph or more is a dumbass. Doesn't mean I wont run someone up to 60 from a light. Yes the ricer will probably think he beat me when I lift at sixty and he flies past going 2x the speedlimit but I know my car and enjoy how it performs and don't have anything to prove. I would just love to do it in a little girly miata.
The first time we dynoed the cobra we only got 220 whp and even back them the car did low 4 second 0-60's. Since the miata is only slightly heavier I would love to get close to the same power and fun.
Bottom line is I would like some more power, and if possible the option to upgrade later when the "more power" bug hits me.
Well a turbo miata quickly gets interesting. At 300whp you can smoke the tires as you roll over blown cobras...not that I've done this or anything of course. lol
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