What Vortech ratio would you recommend???
 

Hi....long time lurker from across the pond.

Car has been recently dyno'd at 186 at the fly (152 rwhp). This was using a simple standard GReddy kit on oem 1.6 injectors, Vortech 12:1, timing at 10 and using 99ron fuel. No knock. Sub 6psi.

I'd like to crank it up to 8psi and achieve 210hp at the fly. I've installed 1.8 tan tops, air2air intercooler, Bipes.

From what I've read.....am I now needing to upgrade my pump and run a 8:1 disc on the FMU? Any recommendations?

I have a 255 pump (not installed) but is this overkill? ANYONE SITTING ON A 190 HP UNIT THEY DON'T NEED?

The Vortech discs are near impossible to find in the UK...SO, HAS ANYONE GOT ONE THEY'D BE WILLING TO POST FOR ME?

Happy New Year btw. ;). Kev

I would recommend that one that says "Megasquirt" on it.

Unless you are really dead set on bandaids why not go MS like mentioned above?

Thats a nice intercooler, but I prefer the oil2air2oil ones. 2x efficiency per unit of mass.

Aaaahhhahaaaahaaa..........fkn hilarious. !

Yeh. I'm dead set on bandaids. MS is £400 ($600+) over here before dyno time, wide band ect. I want to hit the safe ceiling with the bandaids. Fit, forget, track.

Any help?

Check this out.

You are already past it.

I don't know the answer to your question, but there are some people still with bandaids on here that must surely know.

And stop talking about flywheel horsepower. And I mean EFFING STOP.

Thanks for your input but that's clearly not the case.

Gearhead, thanks for the link. You guys have definitely got some keen prices in your favour.

Haha......easy tiger, it's just the way we do things over here.

If you spend 5 minutes on any performance oriented forum you'll see that IS the way we do things "here." Notice I'm not knocking you for not conforming to American octane numbers, but flywheel power is just garbage.

Have you strapped your engine to an engine dyno and gotten Flywheel power? No? K, that number is 100% useless magic then. And you'll probably go your entire life and never use an engine dyno, so why make up BS numbers involving one?

Bottom line: you don't see any credible members making actual power talking about flywheel numbers, if you want to be taken seriously (not just on this site, just in general) you should stop using them too. Just FYI, using bandaids is already a dent in your credibility.

Wow, so aggressive. Quite the keyboard warrior aren't we.

I did give you my measured rwhp in the first post numb nuts.

The extrapolated fly figure is always given over here. Cars, bikes are sold on that basis in the UK. Forfucksake....calm yourself down.

I was asking for advice. You've given me sweet FA other than throw your verbal weight around. Is it a peer pressure thing? Look at me rip the newb? Twat. Kudos to you I'm sure.

As for credibility....ram it. I'm as credible as the next man. I'm in it for the car and the grin factor. Not for your patronising acceptance.

Is this guy really what Miataturbo is about?

We are a collective bunch of assholes. But seriously, you will catch some crap for even mentioning bandaids. Either way it's the internet, people say s hit , if you don't like what they have to say just move on. Most people here have upgraded to a MS by now, so it might be a bit before you get your answer.

hehe, I can see this guy is going to last long here.

Thanks.

Apologies to all for rising to the bait flung earlier.

I know bandaids are old school and inefficient compared to MS but I didn't buy the car intending to follow this path. But here I am. Standalone is not financially viable at this time unfortunately. Knowing what I know now and how much I've spent on various tweaks, MS would have been the sensible choice. The benefit of hindsight and all that.

I'm running a safe 152 rwhp. A few tweaks and I reckon 165 rwhp will be possible. At least going by old MT threads I've read.

Cheers

I've been reading up to see if I can locate any sort of insight to your answer. All I have seen is that 360cc is recommended for 165rwhp. So if you use the formulas found here: http://miataturbo.wikidot.com/fuel-injectors you should be able to figure out what you can run.

Cheers.

Yeh....that was my understanding to until I read Braineacks comments on CR.net.
http://clubroadster.net/vb_forum/arc...hp/t-3099.html

Noob comes to serious performance site with noobisms

Experienced member tries to bring him up to speed on how business is conducted with the real players.

Noob invents aggression due to latent paranoia about running an admittedly inferior system. Feels he must defend his alpha bandaid status

Hilarity ensues.

I'm still waiting for a log of your current AFRs in boost so I can actually help recommend a better ratio...

Clown. x


Braineack....the man himself. Thankyou.

https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1325546569

Any help appreciated.

Oww. My head hurts looking at that.

Am I correct in assuming you don't have a boost gauge either? I'm only going off your "sub 6psi" comment, which sounds like you're not absolutely sure.

I'd highly suggest getting one. After installing it, change the boost signal for the waste gate. It's currently going from the turbo to the waste gate. Move it to directly pre throttle body. This will get rid of that boost drop off you're experiencing at 6000+rpms. This will also change your pressure, be very careful not to let it go above 6psi, adjust your waste gate to 5.5psi MAX! No more.

Then get a wideband. We reliably suggest another disc without you having one of these at your disposal. Currently you're barely hitting 12:1 at redline, which is probably the leanest we'll suggest you run.

If I'm not mistaken, a 10:1 or 8:1 disc will actually give you less fuel, no? Because after 6ish psi of turbo pressure, 12psi of fuel pressure/1 turbo psi is too much. Or am I confusing myself again.

The 10:1 or 8:1 disc will give you less fuel pressure then the 12:1 that you currently have. What you need is the BEGI rrfpr so you don't have to change discs, you can get a used one for like $100. http://www.bellengineering.net/produ...?products_id=4
The 255 fuel pump will work if you already have it.

That's what I thought. Your fueling should be richer if you add and turbo pressure right now, although that's only if your fuel pump can handle it. And although I think you should go richer by about half a point (11.5 vs. 12.0), some would argue otherwise and I think it would richen it up past that anyways.

I actually have one of the Jackson Racing Adjustable Rising Rate FPR's if you are at all interested. You can use Google to find the details and see if it will work with your set up. It's been in the tool box for about 4 years and was only on the car about 6 months. I was running 8psi with it, stock injectors and a Walbro 190LPH pump. If you want some added headroom I have a set of Supra Green Top injectors I will let go of too.

As you can see from my signature, I have been running "bandaids" for over 70K miles. Early on, I found that replacing the 1.6 injectors with 1.8 injectors on the stock fuel pump, a 12:1 Vortech disc and an intercooler ran a safe 8psi. The stock fuel pump needs to be in good shape and capable of putting out ~80 psi. You can throw a gauge in the line and crimp off the return to verify that it can.

If the stock FP will not handle ~80 psi, then you can put in a 190LHP and a 10:1 disc. You may run a little rich, but at least you will be safe.

Lol @ Tasty moron defending RWHP as a more relevant absolute hp number and then feeling all mighty.

honestly, that AFR plot from that dyno looks pretty good considering it's an FMU.

But it looks like most, lean until about 5K then rich. Right now the numbers are good, but if you start making boost/injector/FP changes, you'll have to figure it out again.

what are you planning?

Now that's what I'm talking about. Proper constructive advice. Thanks to all for taking the time to reply. Appreciated.

I do have a boost gauge. 6psi on the road. The dyno read 5.7 max. Thanks for the heads up on the boost signal. Wideband on the shopping list.

TNTUBA, I'll be in touch re the JR fpr. Thanks. I've got a set of green tops.

Olderguy, now there's a name that pops up on the UK forums now and again, your rep proceeds you sir. Thanks for the comments. I'll test the existing pump pressure as you say. Would the 255 pump I have do the job or is the HP pump a must in that situation?

Again, thankyou.

Clearly it is ;) Glad you are getting some help.

i own 1.8 NA miata
currently running:
190lph walbro fuel pump
t28 turbo from s14a silvia @ 0.6bar boost
vortech FMU with 12:1 ratio
diy o2 clamp
2.5 straight pipe
and wideband gauge
--
AFR
14.2-15 under cruise
if i accelerate slow but letting it go into boost (boost gauge reads ~ 0.1-0.2bar)
AFR ~ 13
if i floor it (boost gauge reads 0.5-0.6bar)
AFR ~ 12 and goes to 11 in redline
running strong for about 5month
now in winter car sleeps in garage and waiting for megasquirt and more boost :)
---
btw i dont try that but if your car runs too rich you can put manual boost controller to FMU and let em see lower boost that you actually have

from my car:

https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1325600154

https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1325600154

https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1325600154

BEGi FMU - 11psi 305cc injectors.
https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1325600154



always ended up at 10:1 AFR...this is why I went megasquirt.

I've been getting told over here that I'm running way to lean. Dangerously so in fact. That's why I've come on to ask you guys directly as from what I've read from old CR and Miataturbo threads, that's not the case. Thanks for confirming that.

The AFRs were from a stock 1.6 with GReddy kit/downpipe, Vortech 12:1, 10 deg. I've since fitted a Bipes, 1.8 inj and an intercooler. I've got a new 255 FP sitting in its box. Haven't played with the boost yet.
Just looking to squeeze as much boost as the new 'bits' allow.

The car is getting used more on track now....every little helps.

you're in the high twelves below 5K and high 11s above 6K. that's not that bad considering the FMU.

if you do anything to rich the midrange, youll richen teh top end too much. the effect is worsened when you add boost. running 10:1 afr in boost is damaging.

Do you have an o2 clamp?

I was actually referring to being past a 'safe ceiling' with bandaids Alex. But hey, no arguments from me!? I'm quite humbled by the trouble folk are going to here.

Cheers fella.

The 255 pump is too large for the 1.6. There is a good chance you will run too rich even at idle. 190lhp is the preferred pump if you leave the stock pump. If the stock pump is putting out OK, I would personally think about larger injectors if you want to go even higher than 8psi and drop to smaller disc if need be.

No O2 clamp. Interesting point from Deff. Bandaid too far? I can see Tasty's eyes rolling from here.

The o2 clamp might help with the area below 5K, where the stock ecu will be tricked into thinking the AFRs are still lean, so it wont fight the FMU dumping in more fuel. at 5K is switches to open loop and just fuels arbitrarily.

Problem is you'll always have your midrange perfect, or top-end, it's really hard to have both, and the problem escalates with more boost/fuel pressure.

Ok....thanks. Larger injectors being the 265cc jobs? I've got green tops but i was under the impression they need management to idle properly.

my first test drive without o2 clamp was awful
didnt notice huge power gain and it was running lean

My '91 was able to idle 305's. Others have problems. If you have the green tops, try them, but the 12:1 will definitely start running rich when you hit any level of boost.

I went back to smaller(later 1.8) injectors at higher pressures when I went to the Emanage and Autotune.

I wish to subscribe to your newsletter. How bad is bad?

I'm sure others will have more to add to this, but very bad. It's damn near equal to running lean. Conventional wisdom is: more fuel, less knock, and that is generally true to a point (though it is a rather sloppy way to tune). Past this point, you get into a region of "rich preignition" where the extra fuel can actually exacerbate the knock problem instead of stave it off.

And this doesn't even take into account cylinder wash, MPG loss, and fouling. Generally speaking, there really isn't much of a reason to ever go richer than 11.0; and I would say even 11.0 is considered an AFR for more "extreme" setups.

Sparknotes: 10.0 under boost can do the same damage 14.0 can.

FFFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUUU.jpg

Damn KraftWerks Digital Fuel Controller/Super/Power/Voodoo/band-aid card goes 10:1 on my AEM UEGO (this is max for this gauge btw) any time it sees over 4-5 psi. :facepalm:
I am significantly disappoint, but thank you for the edumication. Props for you

(Edit: John: Was also sorry to read about the accident but glad you and the wife made it out OK, and thanks for letting us vultures pick at the carcass. I await the updated part out thread with baited breath, I'm trying not to buy your ARTech and 2560)

</threadjack>

A lot of AFR gauges don't display beyond 10.0 so if you see 10.0 on the gauge in actuality you could be even more rich. Just something to consider. 10.0 is actually roughly the upper limit as far as when knock begins again. I've known some guys to run 10-10.5 safely, and some to start to experience knock at high RPMs at that level, while bad, it's doesn't seem to come on abrupt and catastrophic like lean knock can.

Thanks for the kind words, I got a weekend off the flight schedule so expect that updated thread soon. Both your items are still available. *evil grin.

/likewise ended threadjack.