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2014 SCCA Runoffs
We have a car there in STL. Some of you may remember this car as the Rental, later renamed Super when we caged it. It's actually running a 1.6L becaue we done blowed up the fancy 1.8L we built for it just a few weeks before the event.
Last qual session is tomorrow. Race Saturday in the morning. Oscar Jackson Jr is driving it. We're not quite making the power we had hoped so he has his work cut out for him. The handling however, is fantastic. Probably the best balanced Miata I have ever driven. One last tuning adjustment tomorrow we think will find us some oomph. If we can find another 12whp, we'll be in the hunt for the top step I think. I'm back at the shop so hopefully other folks that are there can post pics. A few details on the car (that we can share): 6 spd x 4.875 OS Giken diff with our SuperMiata tune, MS3 Pro ECU, Xida double adjustables, 15x7 6UL with 205/50/15 BFG R1-S tires, APR SCCA spec GTC-200 carbon wing and some DIY front aero, Racepak IQ3 dash, Carbotech XP12/XP10 pads on our SuperMiata/Wilwood 11" big brake kit, awesome orange stripes and splitter that make it look just like a million dollar WEC LMP1. Original nose got tore off in a testing accident 3 days before the event, thus the unpainted/striped nose :facepalm: https://fbcdn-sphotos-d-a.akamaihd.n...ee288ce1d63252 |
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Aha, despite many protestations and advice to the contrary the old 1600cc is not quite pointless yet!!! ;)
:makeout: Best of luck to all involved. |
I guess 15x7 to save points vs 15x8 ?
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Originally Posted by mx5-kiwi
(Post 1174155)
Aha, despite many protestations and advice to the contrary the old 1600cc is not quite pointless yet!!! ;)
:makeout: Best of luck to all involved.
Originally Posted by joyrider
(Post 1174166)
I guess 15x7 to save points vs 15x8 ?
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Originally Posted by joyrider
(Post 1174166)
I guess 15x7 to save points vs 15x8 ?
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Originally Posted by emilio700
(Post 1174106)
The handling however, is fantastic. Probably the best balanced Miata I have ever driven.
... WHAT?!? For years you've been saying you have no interest in STL because you wouldn't want to drive a car "that is no fun to drive" (I'm paraphrasing). Now you're saying an STL car w/ ZOMG 7" wide wheels and tiny 205 tires has fantastic handling and is the best balanced Miata you've ever driven? I haz confused. Did you drive it at the 1.8 weight or the 1.6 weight? The 1.8 race weight of 2635 lbs seems like it would tough to manage on 205 tires. I was bummed last year when Oscar was registered to race the Runoffs in STL but then couldn't make the race. Good to see he's out racing this year. My old team mate is driving an '06 Si this weekend. I think he's currently P4. I'm surprised how "ok" he's done so far. We thought the civics wouldn't fare so well at Laguna. What caused the 1.8 to blow, if you don't mind me asking (I'm sure you do...)? Drago had one blow at road Atlanta in March and I think his was a rod failure from too many revs for too long. Wish I was out there...oh well. First time in like 4 years I haven't raced at the Runoffs... maybe next year. |
Good luck to you guys down there!
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Also, why did Oscar miss the qualifying session yesterday?
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Originally Posted by Efini~FC3S
(Post 1174243)
Wait...
... WHAT?!? For years you've been saying you have no interest in STL because you wouldn't want to drive a car "that is no fun to drive" (I'm paraphrasing). Now you're saying an STL car w/ ZOMG 7" wide wheels and tiny 205 tires has fantastic handling and is the best balanced Miata you've ever driven? I haz confused. The other half is the close ratios at race speeds and that great diff combined with zero torques. So you're either threshold braking or WOT everywhere like a Spec Miata but with real suspension. The lack of power makes it easy to plant the car super early in every turn. Add 100whp and it would be a handful I'm guessing. Lots of people break 1.8's when they try to spin them to 9k with certain combinations of parts. We figured out why but ran out of time to get a new motor built. Drago may or may not have figured it out. Our car is far from optimized. It was sort of a last minute thing mixed in with several other projects at our shop. Given another 8 weeks to develop the 1.6 we could pull another 2s out of it, 12 weeks for a 1.8 an that would stretch out to 4-5s. Mostly moving weight around and engine development. So yeah, I'm kicking around the idea of running STL in 2015 myself with a 1.8. COTA looks to be a power and aero track though, not so much mechanical grip (our strength). |
Yea the R1-S are the best DOT I've ever driven on, but I haven't tried the A7s yet. Apparently the fast Integras running at Laguna this weekend are qualifying on A7s but not sure if they'll last the race.
I realize the 1.6 runs at a significantly lighter weight in STL (~355 lbs!). I imagine with the same tires/aero/suspension those extra 350 lbs are going to change the handling characteristics pretty significantly (obvious statement is obvious?). I wonder if a 1.6 STL Miata is a well balanced fun to drive car and a 1.8 STL car is an overweight miserable pig. Do you know what engine the provisional pole sitter is running? His car is registered as a '92 but that doesn't mean much. 2015 Runoffs are at Daytona, I doubt any Miata is going to be competitive there. K20 powered '99 Honda insight would be the car to have there. 2016 Runoffs are at Mid-Ohio, miatas will be back in the fight then. |
"2015 Runoffs are at Daytona, I doubt any Miata is going to be competitive there. K20 powered '99 Honda insight would be the car to have there."
Haha, indeed. Maybe an 2.0 MZR powered NB |
Good luck! Get some good footage! Very interested in how this class continues to evolve.
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Originally Posted by emilio700
(Post 1174329)
Maybe an 2.0 MZR powered NB
I know (I think) about what most k20 cars are making but I haven't a clue about the MZR. The weight of a rwd 2.0 car would be a bit of a problem though. A MZR powered NB would have to race at over 2800 lbs... |
Originally Posted by Efini~FC3S
(Post 1174392)
What power do you think an MZR could make under the STL ruleset?
I know (I think) about what most k20 cars are making but I haven't a clue about the MZR. The weight of a rwd 2.0 car would be a bit of a problem though. A MZR powered NB would have to race at over 2800 lbs... Anybody got a link to qual results? I only see live timing, nothing being recorded and posted that I could find. |
Racehero.io
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Originally Posted by circuitmstr74
(Post 1174424)
Racehero.io
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SCCA official results page -> The Sports Car Club of America Event Results
If you click on "qualifying 3" it will show the composite results / provisional grid |
How much are you allowed to mod an engine in STL?
The MZR / Duratec 2.0L is capable of good power in NA form, I want to say they dyno ~300 in FA trim. |
Originally Posted by Blackbird
(Post 1174599)
How much are you allowed to mod an engine in STL?
The MZR / Duratec 2.0L is capable of good power in NA form, I want to say they dyno ~300 in FA trim. Blueprinted Forged piston/rods 11.0:1 .425 lift cams OEM TB & manifold exhaust free ignition free spec race gas (no magic gas) wet sump |
Well. The SM race just finished up... pretty exciting stuff.
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Originally Posted by emilio700
(Post 1174609)
Clif Notes:
Blueprinted Forged piston/rods 11.0:1 .425 lift cams OEM TB & manifold exhaust free ignition free spec race gas (no magic gas) wet sump Basically I/H/E, ecu, 11:1 compression and relatively big cams. Supposedly Drago's Runoffs motor makes/made 190-195 hp. Not sure if crank or wheel horsepowers. Also not sure what he revs to to make that power, but it's high enough that the motors are lucky to last a season. He told me it would be $12-13k to buy a copy of his motor from his "builder". |
Originally Posted by Efini~FC3S
(Post 1174654)
+ you can upgrade the valve train but valves must be stock. No porting other than 1" of port matching at the head/manifold junctions. ECU is open as well as fuel system. Valve jobs are open but you have to use stock valve seats, valves and valve stems. No rule on rev limit.
Basically I/H/E, ecu, 11:1 compression and relatively big cams. Supposedly Drago's Runoffs motor makes/made 190-195 hp. Not sure if crank or wheel horsepowers. Also not sure what he revs to to make that power, but it's high enough that the motors are lucky to last a season. He told me it would be $12-13k to buy a copy of his motor from his "builder". |
BTW the STL race is at 8:30AM PST (ie lunchtime on the east coast).
You can watch the race live here ---> Runoffs - STU/T3 Race - SCCA |
Fog delay...it looks like visibility is about nill right now. I'm guessing at least a 30 min delay.
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While we expected the fog, I don't think it plays into our favor. Being down a bit on power but lighter and easier on tires, we need heat. The better for the more powerful fwd cars to burn up their tires by mid race.
I'm hearing rumblings that the A7 is a game changer. Enough faster than the R1-S to be a make or break decision for most teams. The Jacksons have a relationship with BFG so they will stay the course. I'll wait for controlled test results to offer an opinion myself. Hard to imagine a DOT tire significantly faster than the R1-S which itself feels about the same as the equivalent sized R80 Hoosier slick. |
We lost the engine. Not sure what the cause was. Congrats to Ira for the STL win.
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Originally Posted by flier129
(Post 1175281)
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Originally Posted by Savington
(Post 1175327)
Shitty clickbait article, just like everything else they've published in the last two years. The issue is far more nuanced than that.
My guess is that next year those heads will be officially legal. |
Originally Posted by Savington
(Post 1175327)
Shitty clickbait article, just like everything else they've published in the last two years. The issue is far more nuanced than that.
Originally Posted by emilio700
(Post 1175335)
Yup. Poorly written rules, resourceful racers. It's pretty clear that almost on racer or builder involved had any intention of skirting the rules.
My guess is that next year those heads will be officially legal. I'm hoping that the heads are made illegal and we have a flood of "nice, low usage" pro-SM heads available to us... robert |
Originally Posted by emilio700
(Post 1175335)
Yup. Poorly written rules, resourceful racers. It's pretty clear that almost no racer or builder involved had any intention of skirting the rules.
Originally Posted by emilio700
(Post 1175335)
My guess is that next year those heads will be officially legal.
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Originally Posted by k24madness
(Post 1175425)
Since SCCA kept all those heads they will not see the light of day again. I don't quite get that since they have good use elsewhere. umm.. if every single head inspected was noncompliant, do you really think that it was only those 6? I'll bet more than half the field had the plunge cut "deburred". Numbers being spouted are near 1000 heads have that modification. I expect the rules will be changed to allow those heads to be legal again, and then returned to their respective owners. |
While a shitty click-bait article, it's still hilarious and is the new Exhibit A as to why running Spec Miata if your name isn't Jim Drago is a proper-nouned Bad Idea.
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Originally Posted by Dunning Kruger Affect
(Post 1176055)
While a shitty click-bait article, it's still hilarious and is the new Exhibit A as to why running Spec Miata if your name isn't Jim Drago is a proper-nouned Bad Idea.
robert |
Looks like there might be a "flood" of heads on the market soon. Got this in my email from Mazda.
"Only un-modified heads would be permitted for competition at the 2015 SCCA National Championship Runoffs." |
Haha, yeah, I hope that flood comes. I can't help thinking, "When is Mazda going to start producing new batches of heads for the SM folks?" Seems like they're getting harder to find these days. Maybe I'm just not looking in the right places.
robert |
I have an unmolested 99 Miata head I will gladly trade for one of the good "Illegal" heads.
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mazda motorsports sent out a bulletin today discussing that matter. Looks like they are devising a weight ballast system to grandfather the heads in for competition next year. They also stated that these heads would not be legal for 2015 run-offs.
Seems like a lot of the details need to be hashed out. From the sounds of the open letter it sounded like mazda plus some industry pro's were going to be taking a long hard look at the spirit of the spec miata rules. |
The letter mentioned:
TO: Spec Miata Participants FR: SCCA, NASA and Mazda Spec Miata Leadership Team RE: Class Intent, Direction and Regulations DT: November 5, 2014 Spec Miata purpose and intent (SCCA General Competition Rules): The Spec Miata (SM) class is intended to provide the membership with the opportunity to compete in low cost, production-based cars with limited modifications, suitable for racing competition. The rules are intentionally designed to be more open than the Showroom Stock class but more restricted than the Improved Touring class. Less than 15 years ago, the concept of Spec Miata was born. The essence of the class focused on a low cost, fun, competitive environment that was relatively easy to enter. If a participant found a good donor car, added safety equipment, a hardtop and a bolt-on kit of performance parts purchased through Mazdaspeed Motorsports Development, they would have equipment capable of racing at the front of the field. Throughout the years, the class veered from the original intent and direction. The scope of the class has crept into something beyond its original intent. While the essence of the class may remain the same, in some respects, it has lost its way, pushing the definition of "limited modifications" and the notion of "low cost." Mazda, SCCA and NASA all agree that changes must be made for the long-term health of the class, regardless of which sanctioning body operates the races. The 2014 SCCA National Championship Runoffs was a watershed moment in the history of the Spec Miata class. With so many cars found out of compliance at the front of the field, a working group was established by Mazda, SCCA and NASA leadership to evaluate not just cylinder head rules, but the purpose and long-term goal of the class overall. The group, established by SCCA President Lisa Noble, also includes John Doonan, Steve Sanders and Mike Allen (Mazdaspeed Motorsports Development), John Mueller (NASA), Tony Ave (SCCA Club Racing Board) and Robert Clarke (SCCA Pro Racing/SCCA Inc.). The group met face-to-face at SCCA's offices in Topeka, Kansas October 30, 2014. Also attending in consultation were: Eric Prill (SCCA), John Bauer (SCCA), Jim Wheeler (SCCA Club Racing Board), Steve Knapp (Elite Engines) and Jim Stewart (Stewart Engines). Long-term Goal of the working group: For Spec Miata to be a healthy, growing and economical class across organizations, where a racer can be competitive utilizing a stock Mazda Miata that is enhanced with bolt-on performance parts acquired through Mazdaspeed Motorsports Development. In achieving that goal, it is important that current participants not be disenfranchised and unreasonably burdened while still making the class attractive to individuals that have either left the class or not engaged in the class due to scope creep away from stock. The most critical issue in conflict with the long-term goal is with regard to rules that permit modifications to the stock cylinder head and the method with which these are being modified. Current SM rules permit cylinder head modifications beyond the level of more "radical" categories, including, but not limited to, SCCA Production and Super Touring® Lite. It needs to be stated that the heads examined at the Runoffs were modified on varying levels, but each head found out of compliance was in violation of the rules as they are written. Additionally, this is not simply an issue with de-burring, but rather actual smoothing, blending and porting on the sharp edge from the plunge cut. To achieve the long-term goal, the class must ultimately return to stock cylinder heads with a permitted industry-standard valve job. Recognizing the number of modified (both compliant and non-compliant per the current rules) cylinder heads in the community, the expense to replace these and potential parts availability concerns, the group agrees to the following path, with details to be finalized no later than the December 14 SCCA Board of Directors meeting: - Permit plunge cuts and unshrouding per the current rules, but with clarification of concentricity, as well as some level of blending of the plunge cut (language TBA). These modifications may require that additional weight be added to the car. - Independent testing will be conducted to determine the effect of the individual and collective modifications. Only once this scientific data is collected and evaluated will weight levels be determined. - Weight additions will compensate for the power gains from the head modifications, while also encouraging the behavior of changing back to an unmodified head as soon as possible. - The allowance of these modifications will have a sunset period of one to two years, based on parts availability. The intention is for this to happen sooner than later, but with appropriate competitor notification. - Only un-modified heads would be permitted for competition at the 2015 SCCA National Championship Runoffs. Additionally, the group unanimously desires greater resources and efforts with regard to season-long compliance checks. Collectively, it is developing an enhanced compliance program to address this. The group will also evaluate class parity and additional concepts to ensure parity and compliance moving forward. Timing: The working group welcomes input, which can be submitted through SCCA's www.clubracingboard.com site or NASA's John Mueller at john@weekend-racer.com. A final recommendation of the group, with the support of all involved parties, will be presented to the SCCA Board of Directors and NASA leadership for approval in December. At its October meeting, the SCCA Board of Directors unanimously passed the following motion: SCCA Board of Directors directs SCCA Staff and CRB to jointly develop with Mazda and NASA a rule set and timeline to address the Miata engine preparation. This may include recommendations around protest, appeals and teardown in the GCR for Spec Miata. Summary: The working group believes that this structure achieves the long-term goal, while addressing short-term concerns. Drivers with modified components that need time to perform the necessary changes will be able to compete at a reasonable level in the short term, with the class as a whole driving together toward a better long-term goal. For the sport, Lisa Noble, SCCA President and CEO John Doonan, Mazda Motorsports Director John Mueller, NASA Spec Miata National Director Robert Clarke, SCCA Pro Racing President/SCCA VP of Business Development Tony Ave, SCCA Club Racing Board Steve Sanders, MAZDASPEED Motorsports Development Manager Mike Allen, MAZDASPEED Motorsports Development Specialist |
SCCA Enterprises doesn't have the ability to produce enough sealed SM motors? The real issue is the attitude towards toeing the line, crossing it and then saying F it all some more. You really think the SRS BZN guys won't find a way to cheat a sealed motor in SM? There was a shop in Austin that figured out how to replicate the factory goop that sealed the 1.6L air meters because there was power in messing with it. The rules were later changed to open it up, probably because it was getting to hard to tech shed the cheaters.
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Originally Posted by mcfandango
(Post 1181060)
SCCA Enterprises doesn't have the ability to produce enough sealed SM motors? The real issue is the attitude towards toeing the line, crossing it and then saying F it all some more. You really think the SRS BZN guys won't find a way to cheat a sealed motor in SM? There was a shop in Austin that figured out how to replicate the factory goop that sealed the 1.6L air meters because there was power in messing with it. The rules were later changed to open it up, probably because it was getting to hard to tech shed the cheaters.
--Ian |
Originally Posted by codrus
(Post 1181078)
Yeah, I've talked to a local circle track racer who says that the sealed motors in one of those series are a complete joke -- everyone knows how to open and reseal them.
--Ian |
That's why I think you go with the SuperMiata formula and just provide a target power/torque and let everything else be done with. If you worried about switchable maps, maybe you provide a "spec" standalone that the tune can easily be downloaded and checked for dual maps.
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Originally Posted by Midtenn
(Post 1181286)
That's why I think you go with the SuperMiata formula and just provide a target power/torque and let everything else be done with. If you worried about switchable maps, maybe you provide a "spec" standalone that the tune can easily be downloaded and checked for dual maps.
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Originally Posted by mcfandango
(Post 1181060)
SCCA Enterprises doesn't have the ability to produce enough sealed SM motors?
Originally Posted by mcfandango
(Post 1181060)
The real issue is the attitude towards toeing the line, crossing it and then saying F it all some more. You really think the SRS BZN guys won't find a way to cheat a sealed motor in SM?
Other sanctioning bodies take tampering with seals on a sealed engine very seriously:
Originally Posted by http://www.uslegendcars.com/inex/tech_tips/attention-owners-drivers-with-sealed-legend-cars-engines.html#sthash.dUsRaR6L.dpuf
As listed in the INEX rulebook, "The XJ1250 & XJ 1219 are sealed engines. Tampering, removing, altering the engine seals will result in a suspension from one year (first offense) to a lifetime ban (multiple offenses). Competing with an engine that has been altered may result in a suspension for both the owner and driver. Additional fines may be applied also."
The above rule does hold the driver and owner responsible for the components inside the engine. Crew Chiefs, hired mechanics, etc. may also be held responsible for engines that have been tampered with and face further penalties up to and including suspension from all INEX sanctioned events |
Originally Posted by njn63
(Post 1181308)
I'm sure they would be able to figure it out. It's just a crate engine with a few tamper proof bolts/seals added.
What kind of penalty are the guys caught with the illegal cylinder heads facing? Other sanctioning bodies take tampering with seals on a sealed engine very seriously: You are seeing the end result of getting caught right now. Babies (those with legal plunge cuts are now illegal) are thrown out with the bath water. The whole issue started back in 09 with illegal heads and the attempt to codify the illegal into ok. The only ones coming out ahead in this situation are the guys that cheated first, sold motors that contained the illegal work, codified such, sat in positions of power to change it but did not and now are fine with everyone going back to "stock". From the outside, the whole of SM might not be rotten but the core really seems to be. Even if that isn't the case, rampant cheating IS the culture. I know when I first looked into building an SM, the comment was made to me (by a couple then racers) that you can only be a solid mid-packer unless you are cheating. :jerkit: There is a reason I've decided to build a X Prepared race car instead of a Spec Pinata (and it isn't a hatred of body work and painting). |
I saw suggestion on another forum of switching to sonic intake restrictors and was surprised I hadn't seen it suggested before. My understanding is that they do a much better job of limiting peak power than a simple plate restrictor. They leave room for improvements below the choke point, but it seems like combining an SIR with the current SM rulebook would only allow for very small gains to area under the curve. SCCA already uses/allows SIRs in some of their higher classes, and it seems like pretty much every pro series except nascar uses sonic restrictors instead of plate restrictors. The raetech options aren't that expensive, and I'm sure custom SM-specific units could be made even cheaper in the quantities that would be needed.
What am I missing? I've tried to research testing of sonic restrictors vs. plate restrictors, but my google-fu has been weak so far. |
Originally Posted by jpreston
(Post 1181353)
What am I missing? I've tried to research testing of sonic restrictors vs. plate restrictors, but my google-fu has been weak so far.
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