btw, don't feel bad. I literally paid for sport brakes 30 minutes before Greg responded to me.

if you are running a points car...do you normally take the point for the PS pump and run a depowered rack, or are most people keeping the power steering? Definitely seems like a lot less fun to run the PS, but that point could probably be better spent else where...

I guess if they split up the NBs, the NB2 might have to take points to remove power steering.

I didn't realize the NB doesn't take points for PS? power steering was standard on the NB I thought?

99 Base came with manual steering.

it would seem you are correct sir:
1999 Mazda MX-5 Miata Base Convertible 1.8L 4-cyl. 5-speed Manual Features and Specs

newbie mistake on my part!

Looks like that is a points free mod, except for an engine pulley change.
I can not find any mention of power steering or the steering rack in the points section except for shimming the rack to fix bump steer.

Looks like adding power steering is free, at least as of 2011 it was:
http://nasaforums.com/viewtopic.php?...power+steering

Is there a clear winner on the "to dyno reclass or not" question for PTE with a NB2? Looks like you want to get to 145whp with a NB2 if you class on points. Getting there I'd imagine would take an ECU (+3), Intake (+1), Header (+2) and Exhaust (+2) which is about 8 points. If you dyno reclass you'll take a hit in your p:w but you basically get 8 extra points (possibly less if you spend more on tuning/0-point motor work) and a considerably "better" torque curve. So you could run a lot more tire, or throw some aero on.

I'm leaning towards dyno reclass, not entirely for performance reasons. It would be nice to be able to uncork the motor when I'm at a DE for some extra umf as well as things like power-steering delete and harmonic damper replacement.

ST TT1-3 2014 rules posted. But not TTB-F yet.

http://www.nasaproracing.com/rules/Super-Touring.pdf

Points cars are faster. You don't need the header.

Just got an email from Greenbaum. All 1.8 miatas are taking a small penalty. 1.6 stay the same

Penalty? please elaborate.

Weight.


I guess I have to apologize for that :giggle:

Not sure of the specifics but he changed my reclass from 141whp at 2105# to 140whp at 2115#.

Rewrites rule book for miatas, throws the dueces into the sunset....

"Most of the decisions have been made. A6's are now 50 points, Miatas all start in TTC, etc."

from nasaforums.com • View topic - TT1, TT2, TT3--- 2014 ST Rules are posted

:rofl:

Does this apply to 1.6 cars with a 1.8 motor swap? I would assume so...but

...about to import a jdm/eudm nb 1.6 vvt motor.

I don't know of a 1.6L B series Mazda with VVT. Engine code, applications, production years?

Damn. I was thinking about this some more. Let's say that the base weight goes up for points cars, and as mentioned the dyno reclasses become less favorable. The dyno reclassed cars will clearly be slower than before. However, the points based cars (being limited by the class maximum power to weight ratio), will be able to tune in more power to offset the added base weight.

This makes going the points classed route a bit more appealing. Too bad I've already committed myself to sticking with the dyno reclass route...

This does kind of suck.

Since I'm swapping a VVT into a 1.6 car, I have no option but to dyno reclass. I can't imagine being able to build a points 1.6 motor that could compete, even with the substantially lower weight.

Yup. Since there is no penalty for displacement as there is in SCCA, there is no reason not build a 1.8.

It's a bit of shame that Greg is backed into this but it's not his doing. Miatas are cheap and are easy to make fast. Thus, they get the most development and go fastest. Pisses off all the drivers in other cars. Also a bit embarrassing for NASA when almost every PT class is mocked by 10 year old Miatas. Gotta do something.

Honestly, if I were in Greg's shoes looking at the big picture, I'd give the Miatas more weight too.

Yes, Emilio is spot on there.

The probability of a particular car make/model winning races is a function of:
-the percentage of the cars competing with that make/model
-the prep level of those cars
-the favorability of the classing of the make/model

...thus miata's win a lot. Primarily because of the first two, in my opinion.


I've only raced against a few non-miata PTE cars that were well-prepped and they were more than capable. They probably have more potential than the miata. Certainly they have significantly better power to weight, and even more so now.

Oh well! All of us miata racers will just have to take it as a compliment for a job well done :)

I ain't skerred

Brain fart on my part. I was thinking the Z family wasn't a separate engine family, and was actually offered in a Miata at some time as an evolved B motor.

Mazda Z engine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Also recall a thread on here about someone doing or theory crafting a Z head frankenbuild. But that would require a reclass anyways, moot point.

My car is too far gone to revert to a points car. Cheaper to start over. Oh well.

Sidebar.
Is there really not a honda/neon/e30/whatever platform alternative to 949/track speed/etc?

Is it a fuction of how openly the Miata community shares info? Not just on here about nasa pt, but also on grassroots, mnet, etc for solo and whatnot?

I can only speculate. Clearly the Miata makes best use of its contact patches than anything this side of an Exige. I think there are a few other platforms that have equal or greater PT potential.

The F body Camaro that vaporized the B lap records at Miller this year is a good case in point.

The 86 twins are not fully developed yet, definitely sleepers.

There are a few old school cars with weird mixes of big engine, light weight or some quixotic combination of go fast potential. A 160whp B13 Sentra SE-R (SR20, factory LSD, quick ratio steering) might be really competitive. Datsun 2000 roadster. First gen Neon. 1st gen Saturn's make 150whp without working hard and are un believably light (plastic body) and handle really well.

The NA/NB Miatas are actually a bit like the 911 in the sense that so many are raced that it ends up being a hyper developed platform. Skews perception to outsiders. The difference is we Miata drivers know they're merely well balanced little sports cars. Porsche guys will spend hours arguing that hanging a 400lb engine off the rear bumper is the best way to build a sports car.:giggle:

No way the B13 Sentra ever got a fraction of the love the NA from the same era received.

Early 90s civics and integras have tons of potential too, and all the ones I've driven on track were a blast. Tons of potential for dyno reclassing, since there are multiple 2.0L or bigger options that drop right in. After all the headache I've had trying to get my fat ass comfortable in a caged miata, I wish I'd started with a 95ish Integra RS.

A dyno reclass isn't "noncompetitive". I think Rover was a PTE dyno reclass when it ran at nationals before it broke.

A dyno reclass is probably more fun anyway. You get to do what you want engine/exhaust wise.

Funny though, as I have been a big supporter for being a PTE points car in my group of friendz.

Just to back Emilio up on his speculation, most of the Mid-Atlantic PTE stuff is a B13 Sentra SE-R.

I think another contender for PTE might be the 2nd generation Integra if somebody goes out and builds one.

I guess it would depend on your region and how popular Honda Challenge is. It would be nice for car counts if NASA killed Honda Challenge and sent those cars into PT.

I've been preaching the points route for years but I've never been a good enough driver to prove I was right.

You were right boss.

It took nearly three years of fiddling for our shop to both recognize and get the speed out of a points build. Once we did, we were able to capitalize on the lbs/hp advantage over a dyno classed car. If you had asked me how to build your points car three years ago, I would have given you the wrong answer. Way wrong.

As of now, we no longer have one sitting in the shop. Just the blueprint in my head. Every car on the team having been converted over to SuperMiata specification.

I would like to see someone duplicate the way Super was set up for nationals and take it to Sonoma Champs. Gawd it was fast. I offered it to William for Miller but he decided to take Nemo (his much prettier but slightly slower car) instead. He had it sewn up but the Rebello motor that he specifically requested get forged rods and heavy duty valve springs.. didn't. Boom.:facepalm:

Off topic:
Running a SuperMiata competition on the east coast would be fun. We got plenty of miatas around, but I am not sure how we would go about piggy back with a club for track time. I don't see how we could do it without HPDE/club support otherwise. Weekend track rentals are expensiiivve!

I think in 2015, I will run east coast nationals at RA. its scary, not exactly the best track for you to run your own car (nor does it particularly favor miatas), but it will be a blast I think. I doubt I will be competitive either way, but I think the environment will be a good learning experience.

A friend and I were going to build a F-swapped '91 Hatch for T-hill, but Greg gave us a ridiculous hp/weight that we walked away from that idea. We were penalized by about 100 lbs for it when compared to the published numbers on this forum for PTE builds. Shooting from the hip without digging up the e-mail, it was like 145 hp/2500 lbs.

The car is more than capable, but we can't make up a 100lb. deficit.

2014 rules are up. I just skimmed it, but VVT cars are now on their own line for base classing. Lots of other weird little frivolous changes to the rest of the rulebook.

He added an appendix for dyno reclassed miatas, but it doesn't cover swapped cars. :slowjerk:

On the plus side, my 2 year old request for a 1.6 car to be able to swap to a 1.8 open diff for no points is now an approved no points mod. :successbaby:

Where did they post the rules up?

NASA Time Trial still shows the 2013 rules.

EDIT: In the TT forum. Need to update the link on the rules page.

Wow, 01-05 VVT's are PTE* 2400 base classed. I guess I won't complain too much about my 99 but I'm still bummed about my brakes and not sure what will become of my 01 manifold that I have an email as a no-points mod.

Maxxis RC-1, SuperMiata spec tire, is now a 7 point tire.

I'm not likely racing much in with NASA anymore anyway, not sure why I care at this point.

http://www.nasaproracing.com/rules/p...ring_rules.pdf

Anybody want to buy some Sport brakes, calipers, brackets, master, booster and prop valve still in the box from Parts Group?:cool:

The NB2 points car is officially dead. We probably have Sonny to thank for that. Almost no change if you dyno class an NB2, though.

The only other big changes I see are the allowance of inverted rear shocks and no additional reduction in points for going more than 40mm under your base class tire.

William was the first to configure a virtual NB2 PTE points car and told it to me about two years ago. At the time I did not know how to make enough power and make it handle right so I stuck with my dyno classed car. In developing the PTE car and other projects we eventually figured out the two hurdles and decided to build one. Sonnys car was an outgrowth of that.

At some point I think my customers are going to insist that we stop racing PT.

Never mind.

It's easy, just setup a website, or forum, or even just a thread (on this site for instance). Get everyone together on the rules, classing etc.. Post the next event your gonna piggyback. Here in Texas we ran during NASA weekends. We were doing Miata Challenge, so most of us were in TT. But some were just doing HPDE, just needed to rent or buy a transponder for lap times. We would meet up after the event, call out our class winners and hand out trophies. Done deal. What's the issue?

+1

All it takes is a bit of communication, a few people to set the schedule and coordinate. Most Miata owners with helmets and roll bars are not luddites so a FB group works well. That's what we use for MC and SPM in Socal.

With the loss of a formal national championship with NASA, there is less and less reason to run with them. It's expensive just for the track time, 4 meetings a day etc. More expensive if you actually want to be competitive in class. And oh those $5 plastic trophies. The deep competition I hoped for in PT never materialized. It only exists in SM but you have to be OK with a smashed up car, running against cheaters and building a gutless underdamped $35k Miata for that. To be fair, I'm partly to blame for the lack of good competition in PTE on the west coast. We scared all the RX7's out and few Miatas are willing to buy sticker SM6's for every weekend like we did.

So yeah, SPM is what virtually all the SoCal PTE/PTD and a few SM's will run in 2014. The leftover cash will go towards beer and keeping the wife/GF happy.

I've realized something similar as well.

All I really care about is going to the track, hanging out, and having a good time. I'm just going to build the car the way I want, run with different groups and different track and just enjoy it.

so you guys asked for a session sometime during the day to run the event? or where you guys taking laptimes through out the day in each person's signed-up DE/TT and using those for MC?

Yup
Well Andrew was the first to really scare off the PTE RX-7s while you were still in PTC. You, William and Sonny put the nail in that coffin.

The tire situation is a big part of my trying out SPM this season. That and the company.
Yup

PTE is a great place to meat dudes.

You'd know all about that wouldn't you, hot stuff?

https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1388438010

Hustler, you may not have to meat (sic) dudes in PTE. There's a BRZ signed up for TTD at MSR-H.

Is vvt still the best choice for PTE starting with a 1.6?

Dyno classed 90-00, NB2 engine. 99-00 points classed NB1 engine will be faster though. 01-05 chassis had so much weight added that it's no longer a viable option.

I thought they added weight too and maybe they had but NB2s are currently 2400. They did get the dreaded PTE* base class, that seven points hurts.

You're right. Points penalty, not weight. Same effect. The 01-05 Miata is effectively banninated.

If penalizing the VVT motor wouldn't that same penalty be applied to a dyno reclass of a 1.6 chassis with the VVT motor?

Looking at appendix C the penalty for VVT seems to be 15 lbs given the same HP...

The penalty for a VVT motor in a 1.6 chassis is indeed 15lbs. The 2001-2005 chassis was given a +7pt penalty. If you're wondering where the logic in PTE rules lies, you're going to be searching for that answer for a very long time :party:

Has anyone asked for a dyno reclass on an 01-05 car? My assumption was that the 01-05 cars got the extra star because of the proven ability to hit the class pwr/wt limit on a points class, with very few points. I'd imagine that he'll still give an 01-05 car a dyno reclass that's competitive in E and in line with other VVT swapped cars.

A points-classed 99-00 car is still a bit of an overdog, though. I'd imagine it will get moved to an E* @ 2385lb base class as soon as someone exploits that loophole and builds a blueprinted E85ed points-classed car.

So do it. I'm not. Sonny's car is for sale and I think Andrew is busy with other stuff. Just don't debut the car before west/seat coast champs or it'll get 949'd.

I would consider it if I already had a 99-00 car, but I'm too much of a cheapass to build one specifically for nationals and still maybe get DQed.

Plus, if I were building a one-race nationals special, it wouldn't be a miata. Miatas are super competitive and have probably the best fun/dollar ratio of anything at a NASA weekend, but there are a few other cars that have never been built and could dominate for a few races before getting re-classed.

Silly easterner, you have no idea what you're talking about

:party:

I'll sell you my '99 for a lot less than it would cost to build. It was developed as a points classed PTE car. I think it's a fast car, has Xidas, blueprinted engine . . . never had a fast driver and a good setup.